Why no PzIVs Restored?

[ajmac]

Considering the number of Pz IVs manufactured and it's place as 'workhorse' on the late war German armour divisions I am curious why no one has a running / driving example in the UK (at least not one on the show circuit)? We have got running: Tiger 1, JagPanther, Panther (nearly), Stugs, PzIII, etc in the UK but no PzIV, that is similar to having Comet, Valentine, Churchill... and no Shermans in running order! Considering that most of the 'Tiger' reports in Normandy were actually PzIVs its a situation that should be put right.

[Jim Rae]

Yes there is. A few years ago, the Spanish government restored an Ausf. H to FULL running condition. Spain was the last European country to use the Pz IV (and Stug).

 

Nice you may think. However, at a time when some TRULY unique vehicles such as several Pz 1s sit mouldering on army bases (imagine a Pz 1 with M113 tracks and you'll get the idea ), a collection of Artillery pieces including some unique examples is apparently MIA.

 

Loads of Flak 18 & 36s here as well. I even saw an LCM3 in the Spanish Naval academy. I'll try to dig out some pics later. :-\

[Snapper]

I can remember seeing a line of German artillery pieces in the former barracks/fortress of La Mola on Menorca, but couldn't get to snap them. There were PaKs coming out of my ears and bigger stuff.

[John Pearson]

Bovy's Panzer IV was run about 15 years ago (actually, thinking about it, it was nearer 23!) and has been inside and warm ever since so the major problem in running it would be getting it out past other things rather than it being a 'dead' vehicle.

[AlienFTM]

ISTR the Israelis were the last people to use PzKpfw 4s in combat on the Golan Heights in 1967 or 1973 but they were deployed statically in berms as blockhouses and non-mobile.

 

Maybe they simply used up all the running PzKpfw 4s in various wars between Arabs and Israelis?

[steveo578]

There's a P4 H probably part of the Lesayn Czech Rep. Collection at

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-59xudoUHs

 

There are various other stuff shown on this and related sites the T34/85 213 is a post war Cz built model Lesayn have various T34s including a zavod 112 hardedge) and I'm unsure whether the SdKfz 231 6 rad is the real thing, as to the Soviet female soldier definately fake -in need of lots more potatoes.:wow:

 

Steve

[ajmac]

There was a PzIV at W&P in 2009 which I presumed belonged to Mr Cadman, it was in one piece and a much easier project than anything that seems to go near Adrian :-D

Does anyone know what its status is? It looked to have been in the same place for a while, just like his Panther.

[AndyFowler]

Here she is at the begining of 2009 show mate , not sure of internal condition though ! :-D

[Joris]

ISTR the Israelis were the last people to use PzKpfw 4s in combat on the Golan Heights in 1967 or 1973 but they were deployed statically in berms as blockhouses and non-mobile.

 

Maybe they simply used up all the running PzKpfw 4s in various wars between Arabs and Israelis?

 

I always find it ironic that the Israelis ended up using WWII German equipment.... If only Hitler knew :pfrt::cool2:

[Enigma]

I always find it ironic that the Israelis ended up using WWII German equipment.... If only Hitler knew :pfrt::cool2:

 

He'd probably go up in a puff of smoke.

[steveo578]

Joris

I always find it ironic that the Israelis ended up using WWII German equipment.... If only Hitler knew :pfrt::cool2:

 

 

In the period 1945 to 1967 the Israeili used many ex Wehmacht weapons.

 

In the first instance they received/obtained surplus weapons from Europe by various method. for example they obtained with the compliance of the Czech (pre 1948 Cummunist takeover) Avia fighter aircraft, these were ME109 airframes with Junkers (licence built) motors. They also received from the Czechs numerous types of ex Nazi small arms (MG34-37t, 26-30t machine guns were common), by 1950 the standard rifle in Isaeli service was the Kar98 with No1 mk3 as reserve. These Kar98 were re-tubed to 7.62 x52 nato in the late 1950s.

 

The most enigmatic purchase attempt by Israel was in 1949 of a number (about 80) of 7.5cm Pzjg Hetzer.

 

As to the P4s it is unlikely that any were automotively intact when the Israelis took the Northern Golan in the last two days of the 1967 war. Many were those tanks knocked and abandonned during the early 1965 War of the Waters- and some of the 1965 war vehicles were still in place after the 1973 war, the Israeli Army used to take tourist groups to see them in the DMZ for financial contribution - it was ironic to see " all tourist pay" signs on the wire next to restricted signs dealing with mines and use of cameras.

 

Any use of P4 would be similar to the odd Centurion, M50, T34 and IS tanks used a strong points, only Cents, M50 and t34 retained their weapons as ammunition was available. most of the few shelters made from P4s would be used for farm shelters by crop pickers -often Arabs.

 

Steve

Edited March 7, 2010 by steveo578

[Joris]

Thanks Steve, I learn something new every day here. :thumbsup:

[steveo578]

I scaned a few pics from an old tanks illustrated book -nearly 30 years out of print -I'm getting really old!

 

Showing a staged photo of a Southern command jeep (from the fighting in the Bersheba area 1948) showing 2 MG34s mounted on a standard local manufactured mounting.

 

Second shows a improvised truck armoured car mounting MG34 in ball mount- the same mount was used in M3-M5 half track co drivers visor, note the No4 T rifles and Handi talkie radio set

 

Third photo of a Tel Aviv parade (probably independence day) 1953, not imediately apparent is the MG37(t) (similar to 7.92 Besa) as a A/A mount- whether these tanks used besa in the co-axial and hull mount i don't know.