WW2 service men

[phil munga]

WW2 soldier how much information can be found ,

 

This is some information that I've found about my Grandfather ,, served as a Royal Engineer attatched to the Eighth Army , and was at Egypt ( Against Rommel ),Libya N/Africa ( built a caravan with Montgomery ) , Italy from there had to make there way up to Norway on foot , were he was awarded a silver whatch for skiing ( not collected )

 

My grandfather never spoke of the war much at all and only in his last weeks did I find things out like using explosives to blowing up railway tracks , bridges , even to catch fish ,

it was not until his funereal that I was able to understand some of the reasons , I'm not sure were it was but whilst in a truck with his Group ( Very good mates I would think by this time ) there truck was blown to bits not sure if by a mine or shell but he was the only one to survive ,

Edited January 24, 2010 by phil munga

[BIGREDONE]

Snap my old man served with the RE's in the same places as yours and it looks like the same time, he has an 8th army clasp on his Africa star. Just think they might have been friends.

 

Paul

[phil munga]

Hopefully will have some more information in another days time , and will try sort out some photos , as for building the caravan , it was alterations that they were doing , joinery work .

[phil munga]

here's a photo of medals The 1939 - 1945 STAR , The AFRICA STAR ,, The ITALY STAR ,,

1939 - 1945 War Medal ,, 1939 - 1945 The Defence Medal commendation for brave conduct ,,

I've not looked up the embroidered patches , Authorized to wear 4 Service Chevrons ,

 

[phil munga]

This is from his booklet not all places are in the book

Enlisted on 4-10-39

Gas test 7-1-40

Exposed to D.M 22-4-42

Embarked U.K 6. 1. 43

N.Africa 17. 1. 43 -- 15. 12. 43

Italy 17.12.43 -- 18. 07. 44

Egypt 23. 7.44 -- 6.9. 44

Italy 5. 9. 44 -- 10.5. 45

 

cant quite make out what it says next but looks like austhip PTO, 474 of 43.44

 

Also in his booklet is a reminder of one of his pals from home that was lost in Battle

 

form E.2. , 23rd April, 1943 Dear Madam I have to inform you that your son, 7902292 Trooper Stanley Moore The Bays, Royal Armoured Corps is buried in El Alamein Military Cemetery , Egypt plot 4, Row A, Grave No. 21.

[abn deuce]

What does the entry "exposed to D.M" mean ?

[phil munga]

Hi, I'm not to sure what a few things mean , and some of the writing is faded and some wrote like a doctors note "unreadable" , that entry is under Particulars of training ,, what can be read is -xpose- to D.M.

 

under record of leave = Granted 28 days U.K leave on L1AP27/R16/BTA April 1945

"then a stamp dated 14/10/45 " Major, R.E. (H) Field Coy..R.E

 

Medical

22/1/46 Category or grade 3149 forwarded to 02E

[LarryH57]

Phil,

 

It's often the case that the men who saw real front line action in the war are least likely to talk about it. I know this was the case with my grandfather he never spoke to my grandmother or my mother about what he did and yet when I was ten I used to take him tea in the morning and ask him about his war service. Whereas my mother, like most adults would not want to impose, as a child I could get away with questions like 'did you kill any Germans' and although he would avoid answering directly he might then describe a situation where many were killed and I would put 'two and two together' (especially as he won cups at Bisley for shooting 600 yards with a Lee Enfield). However most of the time he would steer the conversation to more humourous situations and keep the worst to himself. I also know that he dreamt about being in action most nights for years and years after the war.

[phil munga]

All to true , I remember moving furniture at my grandparents and found an old brass razor , so went to show my grandparents and my gran hurried me out the room before my grandfather saw it , saying that he'd found it next to a well in Egypt ,

[abn deuce]

Thank you Phil , I had no clue what it might be a substance or a disease . It is interesting to peek into the records and see how someone went through their military service .

[cpltomo]

What does the entry "exposed to D.M" mean ?

 

 

Exposed to direct morter ?

[phil munga]

What does the entry "exposed to D.M" mean ?

 

Hi, after looking through some more paper work and cross refrencing the date it looks

like exposed to D.M = Driver Mechanical Transport , just seems a strange way to word it

[abn deuce]

Thank you for your continued research.Yes it does sound odd to us but perhaps thats the way they recorded training and such then .

[Carruthers]

Great stuff Phil, and thanks for sharing it. Could DM stand for' dangerous materials'? Sounds like a more modern term, and for sure that wouldn't narrow things down much back then? Plus nobody cared whether it was dangerous or not, but that's my only guess. The word 'exposed' would suggest that the powers to be were aware it was dangerous and it had to be noted for medical purposes. Decontamination might be more likely....

Simon

[phil munga]

Great stuff Phil, and thanks for sharing it. Could DM stand for' dangerous materials'? Sounds like a more modern term, and for sure that wouldn't narrow things down much back then? Plus nobody cared whether it was dangerous or not, but that's my only guess. The word 'exposed' would suggest that the powers to be were aware it was dangerous and it had to be noted for medical purposes. Decontamination might be more likely....

Simon

 

It is a little strange the way it is worded , I'll go through some more paperwork thats arrived to see what it says , also got to try and sort out some photos

[Blackpowder44]

The yellow battle axe on black background is for the 78th. Div. The white 50 on blue is for the 50th. Company Royal Engineers.A Google search will give you all the info. on this hard fighting Div. John.

[phil munga]

The yellow battle axe on black background is for the 78th. Div. The white 50 on blue is for the 50th. Company Royal Engineers.A Google search will give you all the info. on this hard fighting Div. John.

 

Hi, thanks for that did not even think to do that :blush:

[Chris Suslowicz]

Hi, I'm not to sure what a few things mean , and some of the writing is faded and some wrote like a doctors note "unreadable" , that entry is under Particulars of training ,, what can be read is -xpose- to D.M.

 

What does the entry "exposed to D.M" mean ?

 

Probably Chemical Warfare training.

 

DM is the two letter code for "Adamsite", a nonlethal riot control agent (later replaced by CN (Mace) and later still by CS).

 

It was almost certainly used in gasmask training drills.

 

Chris.

(This was going to be a much longer post but my session timed out and the original message was lost.)

[Snapper]

Good stuff. Thanks for the info.

 

MB

[Chris Suslowicz]

Probably Chemical Warfare training.

 

DM is the two letter code for "Adamsite", a nonlethal riot control agent (later replaced by CN (Mace) and later still by CS).

 

It was almost certainly used in gasmask training drills.

 

 

Further info, following a spot of research:

 

DM was used in training, and people were only required/supposed to be exposed to it once, so that would explain the entry in the paybook.

 

Probably too much information follows:

 

From http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/02707318-7543-48F5-BB1A-3A4F50630575/0/part_ii.pdf Page 49 onwards.

 

CAUTION! 6.2 MB document!

 

7.2. Chemical warfare training

7.2.1. Gas chamber training

The use of the gas chamber to test if Service personnel could fit their

respirators properly dates back to 1918 [1]. Servicemen fitted their

respirators, entered the chamber and walked round for 5 minutes in an

atmosphere of tear gas. After leaving the chamber, respirators were worn

for a few more minutes to allow gas to dissipate from clothing. Special

capsules of CAP, an early tear gas, were issued for this training [2].

This routine was augmented in 1935 [3]. After going through the

procedure to check respirators had been fitted properly, each man

briefly re-entered the chamber without protection as a demonstration of

the protection afforded by the respirator.

By 1941 all Service personnel went through this respirator test and

unprotected exposure every three months [4]. Personnel were also

required to experience a nose gas, DM [5, 6], so that they might be able

to recognise the gas and appreciate its delayed action effects [7].

Personnel were exposed to DM for two minutes: no-one was required to

experience DM more than once [7]. These arrangements continued after

World War II [8].

 

The requirement to experience DM ceased in 1963 [9]. CAP, or CN as it

was also called, remained in use as a riot control agent until the late

1950s, when it was replaced by CS. By 1964 CS was being used instead of

CAP [10] in what became known as the "CS chamber" test [11]. Every

member of the Armed Services was required to undergo the test. The test

continued through the 1980s [12], by which time most permanent military

stations and training camps had a CS chamber.

 

References:

 

1. "Defence Against Gas" issued by the War Office in Mar 18 and revised

at Nov 18; "Training in Anti-Gas Measures" (Jul 19).

2. "Defence Against Gas: Individual Protection", issued by the War

Office 8 Jun 25.

3. "Defence Against Gas (1935)" 31 Oct 35.

4. "Protection Against Gas and Air Raids". Pamphlet 2. Respirators

(1939) Amendments (No. 2), May 1941.

5. "Protection Against Gas and Air Raids". Pamphlet 1. Protection

Against Gas in the Field (1939).

6. "Special Weapons and Types of Warfare: Volume 1 - Gas Warfare". War

Office Monograph Second World War 1939-45, Army 1951.

7. "Gas Training 1942", issued by War Office 17 Jun 42.

8. "Gas Training (1951)", issued by War Office 6 Feb 51.

9. The Gas Officer's Handbook (1951), issued by War Office 28 May 51

amendment Nov 63.

10. Training Notes on "Pellets, Irritant, Smoke Respirator Testing" Oct

64.

11. "Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Defence Training", Pamphlet No. 8:

Training and Training Equipment, issued by MOD Nov 71.

12. "Manual of Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Defence Training on

Land" Pamphlet No. 4, issued by MOD Nov 85

 

-----------

Chris.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Chris Suslowicz
Caveat added about pdf size.

[25 pounder]

My grandfathers story ,

Serving the Belgian Army , a story of continiously retreat , from near the German border in the early days of May 1940 , attacked by Stuka divebombers , seeking for shelter in their trenches , were their first mate got killed by friendly fire from the guard at the other end of the trench.

They retreated , day by day , looking for protection behind every river , blowing up the bridges they'd crossed, all in vain , because the German invader was almost on their heel;

finally they made it all the way to Menin , where they had to fight , man to man , orders were given to hold their positions against any cost , later they found out it was to cover the retreat of the British Expeditionary Force, to De Panne and Dunkirk.

My grandfather survived , noticed it was a lost case , many of his comrades were taken prisonner , he put down his military uniform , asked for civilian clothes at locals , he even got a bike and made it back to his hometown about 100 KM inland

On his way home , he drove by lots of Belgian soldiers , prisoners on the way to Holland or Germany .

He arrived safe and sound home on May 30

[phil munga]

some great replies guys , not been on for a while as been very busy must crack on :-D