Jack Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Jesse made the point that most British cruiser tank names begin with the letter C... Cromwell, Comet, Crusader, Churchill, Chieftain, Challenger, Centurion, Centaur.......Csherman :whistle: Is there any reason for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 (edited) Most british cruiser tanks may have begun witha "C", but plenty of British built or British operated tanks (from all eras) didn't begin with C, except maybe:- Cmatilda, Cvalentine, Cgrant Choney Chornet, cscorpion, cscimitar, Ctetrach, Cvickers MK1,2,3 etc, Cwhippet, Clittle Willie, C Tortoise, CTOG2, Cmedium tank MkA, Cindependant, Cblack Prince, CHarry Hopkins, CVanguard, CShar and as you said the Csherman?? Edited October 18, 2009 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berna2vm Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 I would imagine that the C suffix came originally from the designation of cruiser tank from which the MBT was evolved by the time that the Centurion, our first main battle tank appeared. They obviously liked the C lineage and perpetuated it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 (edited) Jesse made the point that most British cruiser tank names begin with the letter C... Cromwell, Comet, Crusader, Churchill, Chieftain, Challenger, Centurion, Centaur.......Csherman :whistle: Is there any reason for this? I would imagine that the C suffix came originally from the designation of cruiser tank from which the MBT was evolved by the time that the Centurion, our first main battle tank appeared. They obviously liked the C lineage and perpetuated it... But Churchill wasn't a cruiser tank, (but then again neither was Centurion, Cheftain, Challenger)...If C was supposed to identify Cruiser tanks why name Churdhill, Curchill? Can I suggest it was pure coincidence that many but not all british tanks start with "C"?? The Infantry tanks, Churchill, Matilda1, Valentine, Matilda 2 etc don't have names beginning with "I "do they? Edited October 18, 2009 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazz Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 has it something to do with postwar naming, can't remember where I've seen this written before. MBT = C, Cent, Chieftain, Challenger Armoured Cars = S Saladin, CVRT Range Scorpion,Scimitar ETC Scout Cars = F (except V=Vixen???) Ferret, Fox. Barry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 (edited) has it something to do with postwar naming, can't remember where I've seen this written before. MBT = C, Cent, Chieftain, Challenger Armoured Cars = S Saladin, CVRT Range Scorpion,Scimitar ETC Scout Cars = F (except V=Vixen???) Ferret, Fox. Barry. Ferret is often classified as an Armoured car. alongside Saladin. Shoreland doesn't fit a category( generally accepted as a scout car?), and neither does Warrior and the FV432 series of course have no name in any role? Saladin is named as such because Alvis 6x6 were all named with an S:- Saladin, Saracen, Stalwart, Salamander... Saladin has more to do with fitting in with Alvis' chosen name series, than fitting an army series... There was a tradition of naming self proplelled guns after job descriptions from the Church, Abbot, Priest, Bishop, Sexton, Deacon?, ( although Alecto, Birch and Archer don't fit self propelled artillery, named after the church) but I am struggling to find a consistent system for anything else! Seems pretty random to me... And although they never served with the British, nearly 1050 Vickers Main battle tanks were built, ( most under licence,) and these never gained a name as such in britain, (Vijayanta. in India) Edited October 18, 2009 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berna2vm Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 I think that the Churchill was a coincidence.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Scout Cars = F (except V=Vixen???) Ferret, Fox. Not forgetting original name intended for Ferret........Fieldmouse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 The first British built tank with a name as part of the official designation was Covenanter. It was a cruiser tank and it started the trend. Infantry tanks were named differently, Matilda and Valentine. Churchill was, presumably named after the man himself. The cruiser line ran, Covenanter, Crusader, Cavalier, Centaur, Cromwell, Challenger, Comet, Centurion, Chieftain and Challenger. They also mostly had alpha-numeric designations. Covenanter was A13 Mk111, Crusader A15 etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berna2vm Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Not forgetting original name intended for Ferret........Fieldmouse You have got to be joking, right!!!:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 You have got to be joking, right!!!:-) No joke, absolutley true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berna2vm Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 The first British built tank with a name as part of the official designation was Covenanter. It was a cruiser tank and it started the trend. Infantry tanks were named differently, Matilda and Valentine. Churchill was, presumably named after the man himself. The cruiser line ran, Covenanter, Crusader, Cavalier, Centaur, Cromwell, Challenger, Comet, Centurion, Chieftain and Challenger. They also mostly had alpha-numeric designations. Covenanter was A13 Mk111, Crusader A15 etc. Totally agree.. My train of thought also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berna2vm Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 No joke, absolutley true Hmm I don't think I would covet a Fieldmouse, somehow!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauren Child Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 But Churchill wasn't a cruiser tank, (but then again neither was Centurion, Cheftain, Challenger) Centurion was a heavy cruiser that was redesignated an MBT, and marks the point that the naming convention moved to MBTs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 (edited) Centurion was a heavy cruiser that was redesignated an MBT, and marks the point that the naming convention moved to MBTs. I have always seen it written that Centurion was the first "Universal" or "Capital" tank and that it was the first attempt to do away with the old division between "Cruiser" and "Infantry" tank. Centurion was as much an "Infantry" tank as it was "Cruiser." In fact Black Prince was an "Infantry tank" that was developed as a stop gap until A41, Centurion became available. Black Prince being a stretched version of the existing Churchill, to make it able to carry a turret large enough to mount the 17 Pdr, the gun deemed necessary for the Infantry Tank role, at that stage of the war, until Centurion appeared carrying the same gun itself. Centurion is best described as a "Universal" tank that was reclassified as "Main battle Tank" The geneology of the Centurion as an Infantry tank, could as easily be argued to be:- Matilda, Churchill, Black Prince Centurion.... Centurion was not a Cruiser tank, neither was it an Infantry tank. It was either both Cruiser Tank and Infantry Tank or was neither Cruiser nor Infantry tank depending on your perspective.. Edited October 21, 2009 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Centurion was, at one point of it's development known as a heavy cruiser but it stemmed from a 1943 requirement for a 'general service' tank. Even then it was realised that the cruiser/infantry idea was perhaps not the ideal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 (edited) The Cruiser tank concept was for a "Cavalry" tank or fast Tank. The design specification for A41 Centurion as given to AEC included that "Speed on roads is unimportant, providing it has good cross country performance." This is another reason why I would argue that Centurion isn't a cruiser tank. Although in the event Centurions road speed was creditable, it wasn't part of the design brief. And yes I know that cavalry don't charge their horses down roads, but across battle fields, but you know what I mean. Edited October 18, 2009 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agripper Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 The MOD do put some thought if little into the names of there equipment, one that stands out though not a tank is the DH Dove which was renamed the Devon as they thought the name gave the wrong impression , links to "Peace". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 Centurion was, at one point of it's development known as a heavy cruiser but it stemmed from a 1943 requirement for a 'general service' tank. Even then it was realised that the cruiser/infantry idea was perhaps not the ideal. Whatetever it was known as early on in its gestation, period, at the time it actually came into service it was not a cruiser tank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 The Cruiser tank concept was for a "Cavalry" tank or fast Tank. The design specification for A41 Centurion as given to AEC included that "Speed on roads is unimportant, providing it has good cross country performance." This is another reason why I would argue that Centurion isn't a cruiser tank. Although in the event Centurions road speed was creditable, it wasn't part of the design brief. And yes I know that cavalry don't charge their horses down roads, but across battle fields, but you know what I mean. A9 was a cruiser but that was not fast, on road or off, so that argument does not hold water! The differences between the design brief and the finished article of most tanks are enough to make you wonder if they could be considered as the same vehicle. Centurion was considered a heavy cruiser at one point, probably because it was a direct development of the cruiser line, though equally different in many ways. It was not however intended as a traditional cruiser tank and indeed was not used as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienFTM Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Not forgetting original name intended for Ferret........Fieldmouse I thought it was Shrew - which actually fits in with Bazz's theory. But now you have said fieldmouse I suspect I am wrong as usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Coe Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Scout Cars = F (except V=Vixen???) Well, perhaps it should be "Fixen" OK, I'll get me coat... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Jesse made the point that most British cruiser tank names begin with the letter C... Cromwell, Comet, Crusader, Churchill, Chieftain, Challenger, Centurion, Centaur.......Csherman :whistle: Is there any reason for this? In June 1941 Mr Churchill noted that tanks were given almost algerbraic names unlike aircraft and naval ships this made snappy journalistic copy difficult:???. by Sept. 1941 his views had solidified into policy:idea: and although it is still not apparent who decided on the names, whoever did so decided that names beginning with "C" would be the ideal as it allowed the PM name to be apended to a suitable tank. A brave decision possibly by some-one very high up -possibly Sir Allan-Brooke, General Sir John Dill or even HRM King George who had vistied Vauxhall in March 1941 -along with Churchill and had played with the early A22s- obviously whoever was responsible thought the PM and the A22 had much in common, tough, squat, bulldog like:). At the same time tanks in production or in design stage got names- A13 mkV was called Covenantor and in keeping with the British Civil War theme the newly designed A24, A27L and A27M were called Cromwell 1 2 and 3 (later in mid 1942 a more rational Cavalier, Centaur and Cromwell was adopted). The A30 was designated Challenger- it was almost called Centurion:???. A few months earlier the first M3 mediums were being delivered and a decision was made to use the names of generals from the American Civil War for U.S made tanks, giving the names Lee Grant Sherman and retrospectively the M3 Honey was the Stuart. Most tanks with names prior to September 1941 were Vickers commercial tanks either with or without a GS spec number. A11 was the Matilda alegedly named by Gen. Elles for a duck like toy and cartoon character. Why A12 was also named Matilda beats me:shake:, it was not a Vickers design and had nothing to do with the A11. The Valentine is alegedly named as it appeared as a concept around Valentine day 1938, but could also be named for Sir John Carden as it was his second name. the final Vickers type was the Tetrarch which some how Vickers managed to wrangle a Gs number as A17 and later became the A25 Alecto a few were manufactured as SPGs possibly from the 99 Harry Hopkins tanks manufactured and placed in storage. With regard to the Centurion being a Cruiser it was- the comparative Infantry tank would have been the A45- which looked similar to the Canaervon the precursor to the FV215 Conqueror. Yep it is a bit long for a first post :confused: thats just the way I am regards Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Addition: A15 went to the desert with 6th bt RTR in June 1941- the naming of A15 as Crusader was in keeping with the romance of the desert- its use by 22nd AB in the planned Operation Crusader in November 1941 was probably too fortuitous. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old_ROF Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Scout Cars = F (except V=Vixen???) Ferret, Fox. Barry. Just been reading this thread. Vixen does in fact follow the F trend being a "Female Fox". Wasn't it basically a Fox without the Turret. Old_ROF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.