Jeep Data Plate Info Wanted

[Jessie The Jeep]

Here is a blank data plate ready to be stamped and fitted to my jeep. after looking at several photo's of other data plates, I could do with some clarification on the data to be added. The jeep is a Hotchkiss, but is based on an Early 42 Willys serving with the 8th AF in Europe. See questions below.....

 

 

Line 1

 

"WILLYS MAKE AND MODEL__________WILLYS MB ........................"

 

What goes in this line? So far I've seen, "QMC", "ORD", "SST", and "BRT" ( on British Jeeps )

What should be there for a USAAF jeep?

 

Line 2

 

"SERIAL NUMBER......................................."

 

Is this the Chassis Serial number or the Hood/Army Serial Number? I'm guessing it's the chassis number.

 

Last two lines.....

 

"PARTS LIST T/M 10 - ............................."

 

I've seen "512", "503" & "505" entered here

 

&

 

"MAINTENANCE MANUAL T/M 10 - .............................."

 

I've seen "803"entered here

 

Thanks in anticipation. I know that out there somewhere there is somebody who could tell me the name of the guy who stamped the plates and what age he retired!!

 

Steve

[Karoshi]

Steve do a search over at the GEE. This has been round the block several times.

[Guest matt]

Steve,I can help to an extent.

 

Line 1 should be either QMC or ORD. I can't remember off the top of my head when this changed but it was sometime in early 43. there is no difference whatsoever between USAAF ans US Army Jeeps.

 

Line 2,serial number is the chassis number.

 

Matt.

[M8Greyhound]

Steve depending on how "anal" you want to be mate.....for a 42MB like mine you have the WRONG data plate..those are mid to late 44 data plates

 

for info bud...check out

 

http://www.dataplates4u.com

 

tells you all you need to know

 

Regards as ever

 

Lloyd

[Jessie The Jeep]

Thanks for the links.

 

After posting the picture of the removal of the Blackout Light in a different thread, Lloyd pointed out that Early 42 Jeeps didn't have the light fitted from the factory, so I assumed that the jeep I was copying was an early 42 Jeep. See below.

 

 

According to the hood number from the http://www.dataplates4u.com site, the jeep I am copying is actually from April '42. For my data plate style, it says it is from Jan '43 to Nov '43, I guess it should probably have the brass plate. Slightly out, but at the end of the day, the jeep is a Hotchkiss that I drive for fun, not enter as a show vehicle, and only parts of it date from 1944 anyway!

 

So what was the significance of the "QMC" or "ORD" on that line, and which should be on an April '42 Jeep? I haven't found that info on G503 or http://www.dataplates4u.com. From looking at other plates, I'm guessing that QMC came first?

 

Steve

[M8Greyhound]

Hi again Steve not "knocking" you at all mate.....i understand totally what you are saying...

 

ORD came first........then QMC sometime just before the end of slat grill production

 

ORD was Ordnance department procurement order number.....and then QMC was Quartermaster Corps Procurement

 

the BRT and other designations were for foreign contract Jeeps....

 

Hope this helps

 

Regards

 

Lloyd

[Jessie The Jeep]

Thanks, it does. I've only been 'doing' military vehicles for just over a year, so my knowledge is somewhat limited! Now ask me about WW2 aviation, and I could probably bore you to death!

 

Steve

[M8Greyhound]

BUGGER.....!!!!!!! :cry:

 

wrong way round...

 

lifted from the Gee tonight

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The "mystery" box really is not...several old posts about the codes and what they mean can be found....it is not a number

 

The reason the first 16,000 MBs did not have the place to stamp the complete model type in is that the first contract for 16,000 was, at the time in 1941 when it was awarded, perhaps going to be the only one.... and they were mostly all Army delivered..... no need to differentiate contract models on the only?, (first) run

 

If your box has QMC (early Quartermaster contracts) or ORD (after late DEC 42/JAN 43 and later Ordnance contract), you basically have an Army only MB. Slats won't have an "ORD" code if original.

 

RUS, CHN, BRT, CDN were some codes for foreign military sales....there were several others....

 

NOM is USMC and maybe Navy...folks other than me know better ask Mark Tombleson...

 

some did not get a contract code stamp...an exception to the general rule as to what is known at this time...

 

do a search in the old g503 posts I think....

 

 

Oh no Steve i will talk 8th USAAF all day and all night mate..i grew up with it...my father is the UK president of the 8th AF Historical Society mum and dad are wartime children that are very active in the vet world with the mighty 8th vets....of various groups.

 

Regards

 

Lloyd

[demon]

I was just about to say you had it the wrong way round......but you beat me to it Llyod :wink: .

 

Steve why go to so much trouble to make your M201 the same in so many small details :?: . After all you said you're not showing it, so does it matter that you have a zinc plate and not a brass one :?: .

[Jessie The Jeep]

Brass/Zinc doesn't matter to me at present, but understanding the why and when of details does matter. I just want the jeep to look like a reasonable representation of the Willys MB I am copying.

 

However, the little jobs are a learning curve in vehicle care and maintenance, which will hopefully guide me on a path to be able to tackle future larger restoration projects. Understanding the small details now will set me on the correct path for the future.

 

So much of this is new to me as I've never taken an interest in modern car maintenance.

 

Steve

[Dougiebarder]

Wouldn't it be better to do stamp "This is a fake" on it? At least that way in a few year's a new collector won't get ripped off in a big way? :evil:

[Jessie The Jeep]

What are you trying to suggest is fake? the data plate? the jeep?

 

1) the log book says it is a Hotchkiss. That is a reasonable clue. It has Hotchkiss chassis numbers.

 

2) any 'collector' should be able to tell the difference between an M201 and an MB or GPW. I knew several of the differences before owning the jeep. Even a well converted M201 has it's givaways.

 

3) I don't make it a habbit of ripping off the gullible, they can loose their money quite well without my help!

 

Steve

[Dougiebarder]

What are you trying to suggest is fake? the data plate? the jeep?

 

The jeep, as your going to pass it off as something it wasn't

 

1) the log book says it is a Hotchkiss. That is a reasonable clue. It has Hotchkiss chassis numbers.

log book's get "lost" and chassis numbers can dissapear as well

 

2) any 'collector' should be able to tell the difference between an M201 and an MB or GPW. I knew several of the differences before owning the jeep. Even a well converted M201 has it's givaways.

 

Again I was suggesting that the jeep might get sold to a "new" owner, one who could well not know the differences. What seem's obvious to you, isn't paticularly obvious to everybody (hence all the first ashore on D-day jeep's around)

 

3) I don't make it a habbit of ripping off the gullible, they can loose their money quite well without my help!

 

You seem to be a bit touchy about my suggestion-What I actually said was "in a few year's time" when the fake has passed through a few owner's, and the log book has been "lost". What's wrong with either restoring it as what it is, or get a real one to restore"

 

Steve

 

Bold type for my replies

[Jessie The Jeep]

Get a real one??

 

An M201 is just as real as an MB or GPW. It will still hurt if I ran over you! But I deliberately bought an M201 rather than an MB or GPW, as it is a vehicle for fun use, not trophy winning. It is a more practical and reliable choice.

 

M201's are arguably a better vehicle, made with more modern materials, and machining techniques, various areas improved from the original to overcome deficiencies in the MB and GPW's design.

 

I've driven the jeep over 2800 miles in the last year, well in excess of that which I would consider driving a WW2 vintage vehicle.

 

My choices for making it look like an MB are my own, and a proportion of this vehicle is Willys, but if a future buyer is stupid enough to buy a vehicle without looking it over first they only have themselves to blame if they buy something thinking it other than it is.

 

If you are considering spending between £7,000 and £12,000 for example, anyone with 1/2 ounce of common sence would research the differences prior to looking for a vehicle. It you don't you virtually deserve to be taken for a ride. I believe that without a log book, in the eyes of the law, you are not the legal owner, and nobody in their right mind should buy any vehicle without a log book.

 

 

Anyway, thanks to those who answered the original topic of this thread, I am now better informed as to the information required and its meaning.

 

Steve

[Karoshi]

Thanks jessie, you were doing real fine right up to the point where you ammended your post and added;

I believe that without a log book, in the eyes of the law, you are not the legal owner, and nobody in their right mind should buy any vehicle without a log book.

 

I did buy a Jeep without a log book , I am the legal owner, and I am in my right mind.

 

You were wrong once before, looks like you're wrong again.

[Jessie The Jeep]

That's interesting to know, as I have been led to believe by higher authorities that a log book is required. So what proof do you have that you are the owner? Does it create Taxing problems or did this create problems registering the vehicle? or was it already on the road? You can't even get replacement registration plates around here without a log book.

 

Steve

[Karoshi]

I have been led to believe by higher authorities......

 

You speak to GOD?

[Jessie The Jeep]

as it happens, yes.

[Karoshi]

Then with contacts like that there's no point in ME telling you about the registration process !

[demon]

All you have to do is fill a form in at the post office for a lost log book and hey presto a new one appears on the doors step a few weeks later :wink: .

[Guest matt]

I bought both my Dodge WC's without log books. both were "barn finds" and while the WC-52 has it's original 1947 registration plates the WC-56 has nothing and as far as I know it was never registered in civvy street.

 

I would like to add that I do know of M201's being passed off as genuine MB's/GPW's or Jeeps that are "bitsa's" which combine parts of an original WWII Jeep with M201 parts. I have to say it's not something I would do as to my mind a WWII Jeep is a WWII Jeep and an M201 is an M201,both are historic in their own right. I am not saying that you are wrong Steve in converting your Jeep into a WWII lookalike but I do feel that Dougiebarder has a valid point in raising the question of M201's being passed off as genuine WWII.

 

Matt.

[Dougiebarder]

In my mind it's like altering a series landrover to look like another different series landrover. It might be ok for a farmer to swap part's between vehicles to improve one, but from a collector's view you might as well just buy/restore the one you want, and learn to live with it. Jeep or landrover, each one has good and bad aspects. If you want a jeep that's "better" mechanically than the WW11 jeep and keep upgrading, you'll end up with a "cherokee" painted in olive drab.

 

Actually, haven't there been a few articles in CMV recently, to teach hotchkiss owners to embrace their French side, and not be embarassed? :oops:

The jeep's in the article still looked pretty good.

[Jessie The Jeep]

Well, firstly, I'm not trying to pass off my jeep as an MB, it just looks like one, and there's a difference. I can wear a uniform, but that doesn't make me a soldier! If I tried to get into a military base dressed in that uniform, then I would be trying to pass myself off as a soldier. See the difference? I'm not selling the jeep, but when I eventually do, it will be sold as an M201, along with the original glove box door complete with the original Hotchkiss Data Plates. What future owners do is up to there own conscience.

 

I did buy a Jeep without a log book , I am the legal owner, and I am in my right mind.

 

Was that for a vehicle that was already registered and on the road, or for a non-roadworthy or unregistered vehicle'? I assume you now have a log book? I could understand you buying without a logbook for a vehicle that has never been registered, but the previous posts were relating to selling my jeep that is already registered and selling it on as an MB without a log book.

 

I also presume that getting a replacement log book from the post office only applies if the vehicle is already registered and the details are on record? Otherwise you have to go through the process of registering the vehicle.

 

The main reason for the Log book is legal proof of ownership. I sold a car a few years ago which was involved in a hit and run shortly after. The log book records had my address as the owner so the police came knocking on my door. I said I had sold the vehicle, but the police wanted proof from the log book 'sold slip' that I had indeed sold the car, otherwise I would have to go and answer some questions. I needed the other part of the log book to prove I was no longer the owner. Perhaps you understand now why I feel that having the log book is so important.

 

Oh boy, all I wanted from this post was what numbers and letters went where on the data plate!

 

Steve

[Jack]

Would worry Steve, you have started a good topic and as you can see, everyone has there own thoughts.

 

I for one can't see a problem with it myself. WW2 jeeps aren't what you call entry level MV's, where a M201 is, that said, they would still be out of my reach. The only way this could be seen as a con is if a cowboy was trying to sell it as a WW2 jeep. The cut and shut Jockeys do the same.

 

This a great debate and perhaps one that needs its own topic as an example, my GMC hasn't got bar treads....does mean that it isn't a WW2 vehicle? If I put bar treads on it, does it then make it a WW2 truck, then where do I get 1940's air to put into the tyres - I am confused.

 

Cheers.

 

Jack.

[Jessie The Jeep]

In the aviation world, an aircraft containing 15% or more of the original is considered to be a restored original aircraft, not a 'new build'. 15% isn't much.

 

I'd put good money on the fact there there are very few if any 'original' vehicles on the road today, so in the MV world, is there a % figure after which the vehicle is considered more 'new build' from replica parts? and is it then considered not original? and how far do you go with originality? and as Jack said, where do you get 1940's air for the tyres, original grade petrol, oil and brake fluid that has been stored since 1940. Don't weld that repair! the welding rod was made in 1980!!!!

 

As soon as an MV had it's first military service, it begins to loose 'originality'. The longer the vehicle is operated, the more will need rebuilding and replacing. Of course there are NOS parts available, but when is a vehicle classed as no longer the original vehicle?

 

If you build a new jeep from NOS and replica parts, and fasten an original vehicle ID tag to the front frame, does it adopt the identity of the original vehicle? In the same way, is an M201 made from 50% recycled WW2 parts and 50% Hotchkiss parts an MB or a 201? It may contain more original parts than a restoration with a repro body tub, rebuilt engine and a new chassis?

 

But this thread changed direction as a result of the possibility of deception when selling. The description when selling is down the the morals of the seller, so when selling an MB that only has an original chassis and repro everything else, is he really selling an original MB?

 

The discussion about vehicle originality and identity will go on until the world ends. At the end of the day, when you part with your money, it is irrelivant what the seller 'tells you' the vehicle is or isn't, you don't part with the cash unless you are happy buying what you see. If you are looking for a vehicle as close to original as possible, and the seller told you it was 80% original, but you suspected it was only 40%, would you still part with the cash?

 

So getting back to selling my 201, assuming I had managed to loose the log book and grind off the chassis number, I personally would still sell it as an M201, even though it looks outwardly like an MB. The next owner may not be so honest, but in my opinion, it is up to the buyer to satisfy himself that what he is going to buy, is what he really wants. If you were in a supermarket and saw a sign saying fresh bananas, but they were black here and there, would you take the signs say so that they were fresh?

 

 

Jack, perhaps you could lift all the posts relating to true identity and move them to a new thread, leaving the original Data Plate posts under the original thread title?

 

Steve