Tony B Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Suprised it isn't still in use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 there is a properly converted Grizzly at Camp Borden in Canada, seemingly a prototype that never developed beyond that stage This was done when the source of Shermans suitable for conversion to 17-pdrs dried up after US production switched over to wet stowage hulls and 76-mm gun turrets. As you know, the last Shermans to be converted into Fireflies were early M4´s. These had been used for training early during WW2, handed in when the US units went overseas with new equiment and rebuilt for further issue. By that time the US Army had standardised on the M4A3, so a number of the M4´s were available for release to the Allies. Mind you, US Ordnance intially condemned the conversions the British carried out. The Grizzlies assembled in Canada were a potential second source of Shermans suitable for conversion, but by this time the forecast for numbers of Shermans needed, including Fireflies, was cut back. As you know that is why assembly of the Grizzly shut down after only 188 were built; the number required could be built by the US factories. H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) Hanno Do we know what has hapened to the Argentian Shermans? Are they still in service or long gone. Ref. my web page http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/ra.htm In 1979 120 Sherman VCs and Sherman Hybrid ICs were converted. With the gradual entrance into service of the TAM tank in the early 1990s, they were passed to the operational depots where they were reconditioned and put in storage, to be used in the event of strategic or military necessity. I know that by the late 1999s some MV dealers went to Argentina. The Shermans were available for sale back then, but economics made it unfeasible to buy and ship them to Europe. Hanno Edited January 28, 2009 by mcspool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 If you have a sharp eye you will also spot that the Firefly for sale in Holland could well be one of the retrofitted Argentinean Fireflies, note the muzzle break Yes, the picture posted on Joop Staman´s site definitely shows an Argentinean Sherman Repotenciado. H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) I should have done a more detailed caption for the Pakistan photo, I understood it wasn't a Firefly, just thought it was a nice find. The point being that even today it's possible to find a reasonably complete Sherman that isn't modified beyond recognition :-) A nice find indeed! Read more about the M4A1E4 here: http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/pak.htm With many still surviving, it is indeed still possible to find (relatively) complete Sherman tanks. The problem often is they are in countries where is is difficult if not impossible to buy tanks, plus the added cost of moved 30-odd tons halfway across the globe. But if your pockets are deep enough, there´s a Sherman out there with your name on it. Hanno Edited January 29, 2009 by mcspool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I have a book buried deep in an archive from around 1980, I suspect it was "Shermans in Action". Because to the crews all Shermans were functionally identical, there was NO reason to sort Shermans by mark and that in fact Shermans were issued as they became available and it was entirely normal to find mixed marks within a troop. That said, when equipping a regiment, I imagine they'd get a job lot of whatever had just come off the convoy, which would have been the latest version, but as individual vehicles broke down or were battle damaged, they'd be replaced with whatever was available, be it from a base workshop, a vehicle depot or wherever. I have in my mind an image of a courtyard in Italy with a Sherman troop with the caption indicating just how disparate equivalent Shermans could be side by side. One of these days I'll get all those books out of that glory hole. Be that as it may, there was reason to keep regiments type specific because of fuel requirements and spares. As to all Shermans being functionally identical, that's just not the case. M4A2 has extra controls that other models do not and likewise M4A4 is different in many ways relating to D&M. Add in different traverse systems which were often type specific and there is quite a bit of distinct variation. Not hard to learn but not ideal. Photographic evidence suggests British Army formations were generally not mixed to any great extent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapper Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Fantastic snaps. This is a really interesting thread. All this variety. I remember reading a a stunning Sherman dedicated website about some in Cuba during the Castro-Guevara led revolution. In point of fact one of them appears on the back of a banknote. This, I think, is the only time a tank appears on a banknote..only a Sherman or a T34 would do this, I suspect. I'll try and post a snap of one of mine. MB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajmac Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 I presume converting an Argentinean Vc Firefly back to wartime spec wouldn't be difficult, simply find a long 17 pdr along with recoil assembly and a new old stock Multibank, both of those must be easy to lay ones hands on - your M4A4 was a doddle wasn't is Adrian :-) oh, should point out that was a joke.... but the conversion to wartime spec would be considerably easier than starting work on an Israeli Sherman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I presume converting an Argentinean Vc Firefly back to wartime spec wouldn't be difficult, simply find a long 17 pdr along with recoil assembly and a new old stock Multibank, both of those must be easy to lay ones hands on - your M4A4 was a doddle wasn't is Adrian :-) oh, should point out that was a joke.... but the conversion to wartime spec would be considerably easier than starting work on an Israeli Sherman. Hey, don't tell everyone how easy it is, you'll blow it for me..... In all honesty, if it's been re-engined and re-gunned, it will be a fair amount of work regardless of the starting point but yes, a firefly would be the best place to start. At the very least, you are restoring rather than creating. Finding the parts is getting increasingly harder all the time, not least because there are more people trying to find them. Firefly specific parts were never very numerous to start with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REME 245 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Externally it would obviously be a lot easier to produce something resembling a Firefly than trying to convert an Israeli super Sherman. The existing gun if possible could either be turned down to the dimensions of the a 17 Pounder or a dummy barrel fitted. Having a reliable modern diesel has some appeal. At a sensible price I would not say no but such a thing is highly unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Have to say - a great thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protacman Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 sorry lads the country was the lebanon, 1986 not a tourist friendly spot at that time where these were still isn,t some of my photos appeared in military machines fireflys and about 20 comets with that mad 17 pdr turret the name of which is strangely correct , when you consider their location Charlton Heston had a race here......... humour me i did walk though a mine field to get those pictures unknowingly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Sean Devlin by any chance? That name rings a bell.... I remember the pictures, there were two Fireflies and a few Charioteers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protacman Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 and the correct answer is Tyre Barracks, sunny south leb Sean Devlin was a jack higgins character, not me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 here two pictures of interior of 1C, and 1 from M4A4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 here two pictures of interior of 1C, and 1 from M4A4 Coming along nicely, Maurice. Keep up the good work! - Hanno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Absolutely! Looking great Maurice and it will never look as good again!:cry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Yep , Adrian , I noticed it on yours , they are like big hoovers . But if it is done once good , then it is a lot easyer to high presure clean it then than if there is already rust and muck in it . Just fabricating the Engine oil tanks for 3 Shermans , jee none of them is made the same , so welded them as well different together . Batery trays for the two firefly`s are also ready (as well as 2 floor ones for 75mm versions) , just I still haven`t figured out how the front and top lid look like . In the stowage diagram I can see that there are little compartments on the top lid for stowage of items . Next on the firefly will be the wiring , and then controlls in with final drive and gearbox. Is there anybody out there who maybe has 3 exterior fire extinguishers , or the copies wich were around a few years ago for sale? Also the cleaning rods for the 17 pr would be nice to have to put in the holders on the outside of the hull . On the rear are two electrical ignitable smoke generators , how do the inserts wich produce the smoke look like ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Maurice, the smoke generators were 4" diameter and about 3-3 1/2" long with two wires coming out to ignite them. The earlier model was fired and ignited by a blank cartridge as I have fitted to my turret. I have never seen an original or even a picture but I'm sure there are some somewhere! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REME 245 Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 If you are talking about the British version which bolt on the side of the turret, Springfield Sporters in the states did or have original tubes for sale. Exporting however will be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Thanks , but i Just need the Bracket dimensions were they bolt on to . The rear ones would be nice if there were modern replacements to put in . Ha would be nice in mons if you are fed up with the ones behind you , you just push the button , and they are of the horizon :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Any good pyrotechnic man can make you an electrically fired smoke pot. No license required to own or use. I have the drawing for the bracket Maurice if you mean the one on the turret, I also have some repro. bomb throwers like mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajmac Posted January 30, 2009 Author Share Posted January 30, 2009 An excellent restoration so far Maurice, spot on. In the photos you posted it's noticeable from that angle how much smaller the M4s engine bay is when compared to the M4A4s in Adrians photos. I realised that the M4A4 was lengthened to accommodate the Multibank, but it's nice to see in the flesh, it's never as obvious when the engine is in place. Would it be a logical conclusion that the fuel tanks on an M4A4 are longer and thus of greater capacity as well? More range than the Whirlwind or Ford V8 equipped Shermans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 The horizontal tanks are longer in the M4A4 but the M4, M4A1 and M4A3 have vertical tanks in the front corners of the engine bay as well. M4A2 has extra tanks in the lower engine bay so the overall result is a similar capacity in all models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 I once filled up a M4A1E8 , and there went 680 litres of petrol in. By experience I know that with the twin Diesels you can drive the longest distance , then the Radial , and then the Multibank with the same amount of fuel. The French Army did convert several M4A4`s into radials , there were US suplied conversion kits for them after WW2 , Prop shafts stayed the same , clutch mehanism raised a bit , and a M4 top rear deck , and rear aircleaners , and an adapted shroud for cooling. But the reason is unknown to me , some say it was because there were no Multibank spares , wich seems unlikely to me . Attached a picture of one wich needs more then only a battery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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