eddy8men Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I was asked to provide dimensions for the periscope handle and thought it a good idea to start a thread on all things periscope, most would be surprised at how complicated the periscope is. anyway i will start with the handle. flat bar 3mm x 19mm external width 112mm vertical height outside of base to joint 123mm the notch to allow access to the pad screws is 96mm from the outside of the base and is 9.5mm across and 5mm deep the locating pin is central on the bar and is 9.5mm from the the hole centre to the end black plastic handle 95mm x 7mm x 18mm, the 3 rivet holes are 33mm centres the tricky part that connects to the body of the periscope is best shown in the pics. it comprises a locating pin, a double round ended piece 45mm x 19mm with 2 holes (the centres of which fit into the centres on the periscope body) and another piece which runs in line with the main part of the handle, this part is welded onto the doube ended piece as shown. the russians made a version of this periscope on which they used a flat piece of bar bent to fit with2 holes in it. simples Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy8men Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 i have a file painstakingly compiled by david herbert on all wartime british AFV periscopes. he has kindly given me permission to post it on the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy8men Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy8men Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy8men Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy8men Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy8men Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Rowe Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Excellent work Rick, the page on the handles, can you post that again as a separate page, to show all of them clearly Thanks Andrew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Rowe Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Here are some pictures of the rain hood. You were making some of these a while ago for the Cromwell? A clever guy like Adrian would also probably be able to make these?, could do with a dozen! Cheers Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauren Child Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) Awesome -thanks Rick and well done David! Just to add to this, the Challenger illustrated parts list shows no.1, no.6, and no.8. The no.6 is shown with the pivoting top rain hood, so it looks like they were an upgrade to earlier types of periscopes as well (see the No. 11 and No. 12 drawings above). It still calls it a No.6 Mark 1, so the mark number wasn't changed. Edited January 5, 2016 by Lauren Child Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Herbert Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Thanks to Eddy for airing my attempt to compare the different British periscopes. They were often refered to as "Vickers" type in official publications. I should stress that there are probably other variations but I went through nearly all British AFV parts lists from Covenantor to Comet and tried to copy the best drawings of each different version, and to record what they fitted and the differences. Note that the handles and rain hoods are mostly interchangeable so can pop up almost randomly, though there was an official 'correct' set up for each position of every vehicle. Also many earlier vehicles that originaly had No.1 periscopes had them replaced by No.6 which became the standard (ish) WW2 periscope. Also the rain hoods came in many versions, in both steel and brass and with so many detail differences that I think they must have been contracted out to small companies who were allowed to vary the design as long as it still worked. An interesting variation was that when Canada started making Valentines, they made their own periscopes, including their version of the No.3 Mk.I . This was inherited by the Ram, and then made 3" taller for use in the turret, like the No.1 Mk.II used in Churchills (driver & hull gunner). As Eddy has mentioned, the Russians copied and then improved the No.1 Mk.1 and used them in many AFVs including T55 (gunner) and MT-LBu (co driver). These ones have propper seals to keep the weather out, ours never did. Note that a No.5 episcope (for example) is not directly related to a No.5 periscope - it is just the 5th major version. Also an episcope is a NON rotating periscope, though both can move in elevation usually. I hope this is not too mind numbing.... David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy8men Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 quite an interesting subject and as usual for british engineering, overly complicated and confusing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauren Child Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Also an episcope is a NON rotating periscope, though both can move in elevation usually. I've wondered about that for ages, the only references I could find stated that episcope was an old term for prism-based optics. Seeing the diagrams in context it all falls into place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin powles Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Good thread Rick, Nice of Mr Herbert to give you permission to post the pics on the wartime british AFV periscopes he has no copyright over. Kevin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REME 245 Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 The Episcope was used in the Daimler Armoured Car's but was it also used on Tanks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Episcopes were used in the all round vision cupolas fitted from 1944 in Cromwells, Churchills and Comets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy8men Posted January 6, 2016 Author Share Posted January 6, 2016 The armoured shroud is not a standard fitting for all scopes, although it will fit any periscope. each shroud dimension is determined by the thickness of the roof armour of the vehicle it is fitted to. i found this out the hard way whilst fitting NOS periscopes to the cromwell. the problem is the shroud sits inside a hole cut into the armour and shrouds vision opening/cutout tapers away to enable water to drain off onto the roof armour and therefore must be slightly above or level with the top of the armour (below is not good). the bottom of the shroud is flush with the inside armour and the top is flush with the outside armour so the thickness of the portion between the base and the edge of the taper will give a clue to the vehicle it was intended for, mine and lauren's NOS scopes were 1/2" which made me think it was a light vehicle hence me donating one to a friend with a daimler. fortunately i had some spare shrouds of the correct dimensions. tricky things those periscopes ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy8men Posted January 6, 2016 Author Share Posted January 6, 2016 i assume that a periscope fitted into a cupola (the whole cupola rotates so the scopes are fixed) are therefore referred to as episcopes. it took a while but slowly the information is beginning to sink in kev it's good to see you making friends and networking as usual ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Herbert Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Rick, I don't think that water resistance was very high on the agenda with these periscopes. You are quite right that the armored shrouds have thicker bases on the later designs but I have not noticed any significant differences within each design (for example No.1 Mk.1). In fact some cast turrets actually have the periscope sitting in a depression in the top of the turret which collects water that then runs into the turret past the prisms. Realy not very clever. My reference to episcopes being non rotating periscopes was refering to those terms as used in official parts lists. I think that most people now would describe both (and also the "protectoscope" indirect vision device) as periscopes. To confuse it further, the vision devices used in the rotating comander's cupolas were refered to as episcopes in WW2 but as periscopes in post war British vehicles such as FV432s despite doing exactly the same job. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REME 245 Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Episcopes were used in the all round vision cupolas fitted from 1944 in Cromwells, Churchills and Comets. This early version or the later one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauren Child Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 I don't suppose you've got a similar list of what the different versions of the episcopes go with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 (edited) Episcope No5 (7 no) and No6 (1 no) fit the first two types of all round vision cupola, as used in Cromwell, Churchill and Comet. The later type in Cent uses No 7 and 8 ISTR. They look very similar but are slightly fatter. It might be that there is no 8 and they also use a 6 but I would have to look it up! Having looked it up, I was right. Easy to pick up the wrong ones at a show...... Edited January 7, 2016 by Adrian Barrell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Herbert Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 I don't suppose you've got a similar list of what the different versions of the episcopes go with? Sorry Lauren, I rather lost the will to live going through a lot of parts lists looking for periscope info. That said I am suprised that I didn't note down what the episcopes fitted as I could easily have done when I copied the drawings. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daleheywoodtanks Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 In any case, well done David, glad to see you still have endless patience ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauren Child Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Sorry Lauren, I rather lost the will to live going through a lot of parts lists looking for periscope info. That said I am suprised that I didn't note down what the episcopes fitted as I could easily have done when I copied the drawings. David No worries David - excellent work on the above Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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