Badging up my Dingo.

[DFC1943Fl.Lt.]

Hi all after some advice. I'm looking at maybe repainting my Dingo in 'Desert' colours as not many around and would be nice to be different for a change. I'm looking at 'The Desert Rat's' in Europe 1942/43 as my Dingo is 1941. Would the Desert rat badge be the red and white or the black and white. Thinking of divisional troop (Attached) 47, Green over White square armoured car regiment, would this be correct. Also, what would be the correct size for the badges please.

Many thanks 

Steve.   

[10FM68]

If you want Europe in 42/43, then, I presume, you're looking at Italy for 7 Armd Div so that means it has to be between Sep  and Nov 1943.  7 Armd Div had a relatively short campaign in Italy.  It was out of the line near Homs, Libya, for a few months after the end of the campaign in North Africa and wasn't involved in the initial assault on Siciliy or the Italian mainland, landing at Salerno in September 43 before being withdrawn (after taking Naples and crossing the Volturno) in November for employment in the campaign in NWE from June 44. 

Painting can now be more interesting, though, as you can add a green disruptive to the overall light stone (though this isn't obligatory). 

There was a lot of reorganisation of British troops in North Africa for the Italian campaign: 1st Army was disbanded and 8th Army took forward a mixture of units from both 1st and 8th into the campaign so there was a reorganisation of vehicle markings to go with it. To be really accurate, you would need to find a photo, really to see whether 7 Armd Div took on the new 15 Army Group arm of service numbers (because not all did, apparently!) and, if so, whether they conformed to the standard pattern.  If they did, then the markings you need would be the red & white jerboa and, for the armoured recce regiment, 45 on green/blue divided horizontally, green uppermost.  At that time their armoured recce regiment was the 11th Hussars.  But, it was a small window as, from November 43 armoured recce regiments became corps assets!  If, however, you wanted to mark up as another division, it might be more straightforward!  Interesting alternatives - for which there is better photographic evidence could be 7 Armd Div in Berlin for the Victory Parade in 1945 or, something a bit more left field - a post war, perhaps TA, unit with DBG, interesting markings, gloss detailing and the 6-barrel smoke dischargers while retaining No19 radios and most of the other wartime paraphernalia including dress.

[DFC1943Fl.Lt.]

3 hours ago, 10FM68 said:

If you want Europe in 42/43, then, I presume, you're looking at Italy for 7 Armd Div so that means it has to be between Sep  and Nov 1943.  7 Armd Div had a relatively short campaign in Italy.  It was out of the line near Homs, Libya, for a few months after the end of the campaign in North Africa and wasn't involved in the initial assault on Siciliy or the Italian mainland, landing at Salerno in September 43 before being withdrawn (after taking Naples and crossing the Volturno) in November for employment in the campaign in NWE from June 44. 

Painting can now be more interesting, though, as you can add a green disruptive to the overall light stone (though this isn't obligatory). 

There was a lot of reorganisation of British troops in North Africa for the Italian campaign: 1st Army was disbanded and 8th Army took forward a mixture of units from both 1st and 8th into the campaign so there was a reorganisation of vehicle markings to go with it. To be really accurate, you would need to find a photo, really to see whether 7 Armd Div took on the new 15 Army Group arm of service numbers (because not all did, apparently!) and, if so, whether they conformed to the standard pattern.  If they did, then the markings you need would be the red & white jerboa and, for the armoured recce regiment, 45 on green/blue divided horizontally, green uppermost.  At that time their armoured recce regiment was the 11th Hussars.  But, it was a small window as, from November 43 armoured recce regiments became corps assets!  If, however, you wanted to mark up as another division, it might be more straightforward!  Interesting alternatives - for which there is better photographic evidence could be 7 Armd Div in Berlin for the Victory Parade in 1945 or, something a bit more left field - a post war, perhaps TA, unit with DBG, interesting markings, gloss detailing and the 6-barrel smoke dischargers while retaining No19 radios and most of the other wartime paraphernalia including dress.

OMG overload of information there, lol. Will have to think about this now. Don't want to badge up and it is incorrect. Would still like 7th Armoured division just need to source a regiment for a time period in the Middle East perhaps. Really appreciate the information. 

[10FM68]

Sorry, overload certainly not intended.  If you do want to do 7th Armd Div in the desert, though, there is already at least one like it on the circuit - have a look on Google - and the original Tamiya 1/35 scale model had the transfers for one as well,  so it might be less uncommon than you were hoping for.  Have a dig around on Google - there may be some inspiration there - I know of an RAMC doctor's Dingo in a photo, for example, there's a sapper one, even a light stone one in Sussex (prior to deployment to the Middle East.  

[DFC1943Fl.Lt.]

10 hours ago, 10FM68 said:

Sorry, overload certainly not intended.  If you do want to do 7th Armd Div in the desert, though, there is already at least one like it on the circuit - have a look on Google - and the original Tamiya 1/35 scale model had the transfers for one as well,  so it might be less uncommon than you were hoping for.  Have a dig around on Google - there may be some inspiration there - I know of an RAMC doctor's Dingo in a photo, for example, there's a sapper one, even a light stone one in Sussex (prior to deployment to the Middle East.  

Have tried Google and have seen some war time photos but because they are black &white you can't determine the division insignia related to colour. 

[10FM68]

Ah - that's the easy bit.  There are plenty of colour plates of British WWII formation signs - even charts - again on Google.  Find the photo you like the look of, put it up on here and there'll be someone who can give you the exact colour match.

[DFC1943Fl.Lt.]

On 8/4/2024 at 8:34 AM, 10FM68 said:

Ah - that's the easy bit.  There are plenty of colour plates of British WWII formation signs - even charts - again on Google.  Find the photo you like the look of, put it up on here and there'll be someone who can give you the exact colour match.

This is what I think I'll badge my Dingo up as. Would this be correct. 

[DFC1943Fl.Lt.]

Just now, DFC1943Fl.Lt. said:

This is what I think I'll badge my Dingo up as. Would this be correct. 

Would the roundle have a yellow circle on the outer edge. Not too worried about a period in wartime just as long as it fits in with a WW2 campaign. 

[10FM68]

OK, well, a couple of things come out of that.  Firstly, it's an early Dingo with the sharply raked rear end - is yours?  I would be surprised.  (I forget which mark it is - 1 or 2, I think, but, yours will probably be the later one with the different rear end).

Here's the early one:

And here's the later one:

Neither of these is a real one, but you get the idea.

Secondly - the green-over-white AOS sign.  I can't find any 100% proof of it ever having been used.  It isn't in the lists I have and 75 doesn't crop up for an armoured unit either. The name Morecambe doesn't appear in the lists which have recently been added to this Forum either.  So...  I can't say I'm keen!

On the positive side, the 7 Armd Div formation sign looks OK, though, interestingly, that particular division, more often than not combined the divisional sign with that of the brigade (for brigade vehicles obv, not for div troops).

So, where does that leave you?  Well, if you want light stone there are options, but you'd have to look closely at which mark of Dingo you'd got. (if the later version, there's always post-war light stone for Canal Zone, Persian Gulf, Libya or even Cyprus.) 

If you wanted something different then this is a genuine example:

The Westminster Dragoons - colour, probably shiny SCC2 (though you could use dark bronze green a la the rear Daimler armoured car and, no doubt, other Dingos in the unit).

Korea, perhaps?

RAC regiment of 40th Inf Div in Korea - possibly SCC15, possibly DBG

Sappers in Korea - also 40th Div - probably DBG

 

25 Armd Bde or 1 Armd Div (depending on date) in Cyprus post-war - light stone again.

44 (Home Counties) Inf Div Armd car regt - again post-war, possibly SCC15, SCC2 or, less likely looking at the tone DBG.

Anyway, there are a few ideas. I'll have a trawl for better wartime light stone examples, but I'm not good at identifying the various marks except from the rear.

Oh, and the roundel can have either a yellow outer ring or not - again, you'd need to look at a particular example.

 

My thanks to the holders of these original images.

Edited August 5 by 10FM68

[10FM68]

If you haven't done so, have a look at this link: http://www.daimler-fighting-vehicles.co.uk/

It has lots of detail information which you might find of use.

[DFC1943Fl.Lt.]

Cheers for the information. My dingo according to the information that came with it was built in 1940/41. It is a Mk2 and should have the folding metal roof instead of the canvas which it came with. I am getting the metal version made. The reason I'm set on 7th Armoured (Desert Rats) is one of our group has a dingo as well. His is 11th Armoured (Raging Bull) so just want something different. Also another member has a Bedford OXD done in Sand desert rats to (Royal Artillery) red over blue 76 field regiment so would be nice to set up a display together. The AOS sign by the way is 76 and not 75. Really still wating sand desert rats, just need to sort out the nitty gritty. Really appreciate your input on my dilemma.

Cheers Steve.  

[DFC1943Fl.Lt.]

Just been looking at a dingo in the Bovington collection and there is one there with the same AOS green over white 76.

[10FM68]

76 is OK - Div armoured car regiment - 11H in 7 Armd Div in 42.  The trouble with museums, even the Tank Museum is that the exhibits are repainted from time to time and not all the schemes are accurate.  That's a MkIII with the canvas top which wasn't around in the desert, for example.  I know green over blue is correct for the AOS sign from Sep 41, but I don't know about the green over white at all - though have heard of it - perhaps it was used in the Middle East prior to Sep 41, but I can't find any evidence.  I'd try and stick to original photos

There's this one which is nice as it's different - has some disruptive camouflage - note the writing on the sand mats!:

33 on blue - probably 21 Fd Sqn RE, one of the two 7 Armd Div sapper field squadrons 4 (22 on AOS sign) & 21 (33) Later 621.  (I don't know what mark it is, though). 

or this one of 5RTR of 4 Armd Bde/7 Armd Div in 1942

Markings are red.  This is the one Tamiya modelled, I think.  Note the interior is in a contrasting colour - probably khaki green No3.

Addendum:

I have just found the folowing in Dick Taylor's 'Warpaint' Vol3

"Green over White - Armoured Car Regiments.  This has been suggested as used originally for un-brigaded RAC regiments and dropped by 1941; however, there is no mention of it in any relevant (official) documents referred to.  I have seen a colour photograph of a Valentine tank which looks suspiciously like white over green, with no number".

So make of that what you will! I'm not sure the evidence is strong enough to support green over white, myself.  It would also be unique in needing black lettering - all lettering at that time seems to be described as white.  (the red on R Signals white over blue came in later) as did the post-war black on red/yellow for RAC - though not all units used it, most chose white lettering.

 

I note also that the Tank Museum Dingo seems to be carrying a Lancers badge on the side of the crew compartment.  That wouldn't be right - the un-brigaded RAC regiment (div armoured car regiment) in 7 Armd Div was firstly 11 Hussars, (40-43) then 8 Hussars (44-45).

Edited August 5 by 10FM68
Addendum - on green & white AOS signs

[DFC1943Fl.Lt.]

11 hours ago, 10FM68 said:

76 is OK - Div armoured car regiment - 11H in 7 Armd Div in 42.  The trouble with museums, even the Tank Museum is that the exhibits are repainted from time to time and not all the schemes are accurate.  That's a MkIII with the canvas top which wasn't around in the desert, for example.  I know green over blue is correct for the AOS sign from Sep 41, but I don't know about the green over white at all - though have heard of it - perhaps it was used in the Middle East prior to Sep 41, but I can't find any evidence.  I'd try and stick to original photos

There's this one which is nice as it's different - has some disruptive camouflage - note the writing on the sand mats!:

33 on blue - probably 21 Fd Sqn RE, one of the two 7 Armd Div sapper field squadrons 4 (22 on AOS sign) & 21 (33) Later 621.  (I don't know what mark it is, though). 

or this one of 5RTR of 4 Armd Bde/7 Armd Div in 1942

Markings are red.  This is the one Tamiya modelled, I think.  Note the interior is in a contrasting colour - probably khaki green No3.

Addendum:

I have just found the folowing in Dick Taylor's 'Warpaint' Vol3

"Green over White - Armoured Car Regiments.  This has been suggested as used originally for un-brigaded RAC regiments and dropped by 1941; however, there is no mention of it in any relevant (official) documents referred to.  I have seen a colour photograph of a Valentine tank which looks suspiciously like white over green, with no number".

So make of that what you will! I'm not sure the evidence is strong enough to support green over white, myself.  It would also be unique in needing black lettering - all lettering at that time seems to be described as white.  (the red on R Signals white over blue came in later) as did the post-war black on red/yellow for RAC - though not all units used it, most chose white lettering.

 

I note also that the Tank Museum Dingo seems to be carrying a Lancers badge on the side of the crew compartment.  That wouldn't be right - the un-brigaded RAC regiment (div armoured car regiment) in 7 Armd Div was firstly 11 Hussars, (40-43) then 8 Hussars (44-45).

This is a great help, you certainly have a great knowledge on this subject. I like the 5RTR. 7th Armoured Dingo. Will more than likely badge her up as this. Is there any reason for the seeing the desert rat motive on the left or right hand side of the vehicle. Also is there a standard size of the badges.

[DFC1943Fl.Lt.]

Oh yes by the way my Dingo is F47365. Mk2.

[10FM68]

Actually, it isn't anything to do with knowledge, as that implies retention and my brain no longer retains anything - I just have an extensive library!  I often read things I have written and can't even remember having known the information I wrote!  At the moment, though, I am busy studying these signs and the numbers which go with them, so they are close to the surface - which is useful this week!

OK!  Right, the correct size for the arm of service (AOS) sign is 9 1/2" tall and 8 1/2" wide.  Most formation signs were whatever they were: square, oblong, oval or whatever but of similar size to the AOS ones. 

But... as you will see from the photos - 7 Armd Div didn't conform.  More usually, and increasingly over time, they combined their divisional formation sign with the AOS sign for divisional troops (eg the Sapper Dingo above), OR, for units in the constituent brigades, the brigade sign with the AOS sign as is the case with the 5RTR Dingo which belonged to a unit of 4 Armd Bde, within 7 Armd Div.  Have a look on the internet - there are loads of examples. 

Where the AOS sign and the brigade sign were combined, 7 Armd Div also added its own formation sign - so you end up with 2 formation signs instead of the more usual one.  They kept this habit all through the war.

Now, the only problem with the 5RTR example above is this:  5RTR were in 4 Armd Bde - which also used the jerboa - the desert rat - as its formation sign.  But, the 4 brigade rat was supposed to be in black on a white circle, sometimes on a red square and it ought to be slightly fatter and with its tail curled over its head, not underneath it.  But, the photo clearly shows that the shape of the rat used in the div sign - on the offside - and the bde sign - nearside combined with the AOS sign, is the same.  It appears as though the signwriter used the same pattern for both. 

That then leads to the next question which is whether he correctly painted the 4 Bde rat black or left it red like the 7 Div one.  From the B&W photo it is difficult to tell as dusty black and dusty red have similar tone.  I would suspect that the nearside rat is black - at least, it ought to be!  The rest of the detail is red and white.

Here's a correctly badged 4 Bde Humber from after it had left 7 Div and the bde was 'Corps troops' in North West Europe after June 44.  You'll see that the jerboa should be a very different shape from the 7 Div one:

So, you see, nothing is straightforward and, despite all the rules, people in the army don't necessarily follow them and, if they do, they can often take months or even years to implement them!  

I'm sorry that's a bit longwinded and I hope it is clear.  The whole subject is a minefield, unfortunately.

[DFC1943Fl.Lt.]

Well as I see it, I'll stick with the 5RTR 4 Bde 7th Armoured. Red markings. Can appreciate the mine field this subject involves. With regards to the signage, would the red be a crimson or scarlet red or something different. Was there a standard red or was it what ever can to hand. 

Cheers Steve. 

[10FM68]

Just a simple bright red.  Who knows where the paint would have come from in the desert at that time - if from UK sources, then thousands of gallons by sea - if local, then from Egypt, presumably.  And, of course, in that heat and sun light red is quick to fade.  All red is good, but compare the tone of the 4 Bde rat with the tone of the black berets!  Bottom line, though, is always, go with what you're happy with - it's your vehicle, your money, your time!.

[10FM68]

On 8/7/2024 at 9:31 AM, DFC1943Fl.Lt. said:

Well as I see it, I'll stick with the 5RTR 4 Bde 7th Armoured. Red markings. Can appreciate the mine field this subject involves. With regards to the signage, would the red be a crimson or scarlet red or something different. Was there a standard red or was it what ever can to hand. 

Cheers Steve. 

I had a chat the other day with Mike Starmer who is a guru on WWII British colours and markings and he shares the opinion that the 4 Bde rat would indeed be black and that Tamiya simply made a mistake.

[DFC1943Fl.Lt.]

16 hours ago, 10FM68 said:

I had a chat the other day with Mike Starmer who is a guru on WWII British colours and markings and he shares the opinion that the 4 Bde rat would indeed be black and that Tamiya simply made a mistake.

Bugger, I've just done all my Rats red..

 

[DFC1943Fl.Lt.]

Just now, DFC1943Fl.Lt. said:

Bugger, I've just done all my Rats red..

 

Also would the division badge be red back ground, white circle with black rat then.

[10FM68]

No, the 7 Armoured Division sign retains a red rat.  The 4 Armoured Brigade sign which is the one above the 67 on a red ground would have the black rat.

[DFC1943Fl.Lt.]

On 8/29/2024 at 2:04 PM, 10FM68 said:

No, the 7 Armoured Division sign retains a red rat.  The 4 Armoured Brigade sign which is the one above the 67 on a red ground would have the black rat.

Sorry to keep bombarding you questions but what would the '67' brigade sign signify. Thinking about the uniform shoulder insignia. I've got the 7th Armoured rat patches and bombadear stripes, but unsure about what shoulder flashes would be.

[10FM68]

It is the junior of three armoured regiments in the senior brigade of an armoured division.  The senior was 65 on red, the middle one 86 on red and the junior one 67 on red.  In this case, the junior regiment of the three armoured regiments in 4 Armd Bde was 5 RTR. The junior brigade then had green squares with 65, 68 and 83.