Armoured vehicle ownership in Germany - is it illegal?

[LarryH57]

I have heard that for German residents, it is now illegal to own a fully armoured vehicle, wheeled or tracked.

However, I have also heard that with the the drivers position open, it may be permitted (but with the original armour cut out, around the driver) 

What is the truth?

Does a Panther Tank get the thumbs down whereas a Sdkfz 251 would be ok as there is no roof armour?

Edited June 17 by LarryH57

[jmehner]

As long as you keep it on private property, the only requirement is to demil the guns. You cannot get a tracked military vehicle streetlegal, as the tracks tend to churn up streets etc. Wheeled armoured vehicles need to have cutouts in the armour so a police sniper can immobilize the driver if the vehicle is used for criminal or terrorist activities.

Edited June 18 by jmehner

[sands]

15 hours ago, jmehner said:

As long as you keep it on private property, the only requirement is to demil the guns. You cannot get a tracked military vehicle streetlegal, as the tracks tend to churn up streets etc. Wheeled armoured vehicles need to have cutouts in the armour so a police sniper can immobilize the driver if the vehicles is used for criminal or terrorist activities.

interesting advice, we do have it a lot easier in the uk i feel.

[paul connor]

An interesting topic and one I cannot still get a definitive answer for.

H category licence is not valid or seems to exist here - they took mine away (track laying vehicle), so not sure what category the Bundeswehr use as they do not seem to get exemptions.

This follows the idea of no tracked vehicles on the road, although Kettenkraftrads, M3 Half-track and Hugglands BV206 I have seen with TÜV and registered for road use here. All with tracks. The idea of tracks damaging the roads I think does harm to the ownership as they only leave black rubber marks if the vehicle pads are within wear limits. Full metal tracks would leave surface damage but this would also be very dangerous in the wet - most armour post-war being fitted with rubber track blocks for grip.

Armour you can own, I know a few people with FV432's. These do need to be demiliterised which can (subject to state and who inspects the vehicle) involve replacement of armour around the driver with thinner steel to enable small arms to halt a vehicle.

It also confuses me as I know several vehicles that are bullet-proof >7.62mm and have not be demiliterised.

I feel it is much like dealing with TÜV Nord and TÜV Süd, it comes down to the tester and their common sense or lack of. I found Nord to be very unhelpful with data sheets and Süd to be more than helpful when assisting with military vehicles testing and registration.

 

[LarryH57]

Thanks all for your feedback.

I guess the German authorities are extremely cautious over heavy tracked vehicles, but in England as in France, a terrorist can steal a medium sized truck and run over pedestrians, as happen in Nice.

In London I see heavy concrete blocks or heavy steel barriers put in place to keep vehicles on the pavement, in high risk areas - but I could just drive into any cyclists or pedestrians anywhere - so we cannot ever be 100% safe.

Its perhaps best to keep the people trying to kill innocent civilians out of the country! 

And Paul, I got to Militracks 2024 and it was great.

Edited June 18 by LarryH57

[jmehner]

1 hour ago, paul connor said:

... the Bundeswehr use as they do not seem to get exemptions.

This follows the idea of no tracked vehicles on the road, although Kettenkraftrads, M3 Half-track and Hugglands BV206 I have seen with TÜV and registered for road use here. All with tracks. The idea of tracks damaging the roads I think does harm to the ownership as they only leave black rubber marks if the vehicle pads are within wear limits. Full metal tracks would leave surface damage but this would also be very dangerous in the wet - most armour post-war being fitted with rubber track blocks for grip.

Armour you can own, I know a few people with FV432's. These do need to be demiliterised which can (subject to state and who inspects the vehicle) involve replacement of armour around the driver with thinner steel to enable small arms to halt a vehicle.

It also confuses me as I know several vehicles that are bullet-proof >7.62mm and have not be demiliterised....

 

The Bundeswehr usually only does short road movements of tracked vehicles, the usual matter of transport is either a lowloader, dedicated tank transporter or by rail.

The Kettenkrafträder may have old licenses, most of those got restored and registered in the 1960s and 1970s when things were more lax. M3 halftracks as well as Hägglunds BV206s have rubber tracks, so they are a different kettle of fish. Plus BV 206s are unarmoured, and the halftracks already have big openings up front.

Even with rubber track blocks you can do a lot of damage to streets, curbs etc., I have seen plenty of that during maneuvres during the cold war.

It was already very difficult to have a streetlegal tracked AGV way back when, then the only one was a Schützenpanzer kurz owned by an artist in, IIRC, Cologne. ISTR there was a bankjob involving an armoured vehicle, and they cracked down more after that.

I also know people who have fully armoured AFVs here in Germany, but they can only be transported on public streets via trailer or lowloader. As long as they are on private grounds at their destination, they do not need to be demil'ed or have modified armour.

 

 

[jmehner]

1 hour ago, LarryH57 said:

... Its perhaps best to keep the people trying to kill innocent civilians out of the country!...

There have been plenty of natives killing innocent civilians, most terrorists are homegrown. I also seem to recall a War of the Roses as well as an English Civil War, where none but Englishmen were intent on killing each other... 🤔

Edited June 18 by jmehner

[paul connor]

3 hours ago, LarryH57 said:

Thanks all for your feedback.

I guess the German authorities are extremely cautious over heavy tracked vehicles, but in England as in France, a terrorist can steal a medium sized truck and run over pedestrians, as happen in Nice.

In London I see heavy concrete blocks or heavy steel barriers put in place to keep vehicles on the pavement, in high risk areas - but I could just drive into any cyclists or pedestrians anywhere - so we cannot ever be 100% safe.

Its perhaps best to keep the people trying to kill innocent civilians out of the country! 

And Paul, I got to Militracks 2024 and it was great.

I am glad you made it to Militracks 2024 - it really is a fascinating show