Saracen not going to Combined Opps

[trophy160]

I bought my Saracen 15 months ago and during that time have being doing cosmetic restoration. Last summer it was sandblasting the exterior and spraying and for about the last 12 months I have laboriously been taking the interior back to metal and repainting. I still have one section left to do (right hand rear) but most of it is done. Along the way I have been buying Saracen 'bling' and most of that is now fitted.

 

I could not get to War and Peace because the driver's seat was away being refurbished, but have been getting it readied for the Headcorn Combined Opps. Last weekend I gave it a test drive but it seemed to foul its plugs. I fitted a new set on Friday and today took it for another drive. I drives really nicely for a couple of miles but then........the engine has a tendency to stop when the vehicle is stopped and it is then difficult to start and then only fires on 4 or 5 cylinders with no power. I think it is just the case that it is getting very hot (and it was a hot day) and it's getting vapour locks. If I leave it for a couple of hours then all seems well again. I should mention that it is reverse cooling Mk6 where someone has removed the cowling and put 'normal' direction fans on. But I guess it is struggling to get the heat out of the engine bay. I did notice that the deck around the bonnet area on the exhaust side was really hot after just a couple of miles.

 

Richard Farrant has suggested I might want to convert it back to conventional reverse flow set up, but I'm wondering before doing that, I try putting some extractor fans in the beehives to try to suck the hot air out of the engine bay - any comments?

 

My test runs caused chaos on my local country roads and it came really close to stopping in the middle of a single carriageway bridge, I just managed to get it over the bridge before it stopped.

 

Anyway, since it won't being going to Combined Opps, here are some photos of it before and after. You might notice that to to right of the right hand side fire extinguisher near the driver I have fitted my reversing camera screen and you can see my housing for the reversing camera where the tow hitch would go. I have to say this works brilliantly and was well worth the 40 or 50 quid from Ebay

 

Nic

 

 

 

[Starfire]

Certainly a big improvement and a nice vehicle. I do have some questions and comments:

1) I would suggest reverting back to reverse flow cooling also. On the conventionally cooled Saracens, the majority of the engine heat is expelled through the armoured "trunks" that go under the side windows and these are not present on the RC models. I don't believe that the beehives are big enough or situated correctly to cool the engine alone; many people who have messed around with the cooling system on the Mk 3 and 6 have had similar problems to yours.

2) Whether you do restore your cooling system or not, you can probably improve reliability by fitting an electronic ignition kit and a LOW PRESSURE electric fuel pump. The pump especially helps with vapour lock. High pressure (fuel injection) pumps should never be fitted with carbies and can cause all sorts of problems, especially fires.

3) Your seat pads are incorrectly installed. The front edges of them should wrap around the seat lids with the corners held in the leather pockets.

4) Why have you removed half of the spall linings?

5) Why have you mounted a Bren gun? The Mk 5 and 6 never carried them.

6) Can you post up some details of your GPMG?

7) Can you post up details of your radio install, with lots of pictures please? I'm part way through a Clansman install myself and it would be great to see how you did yours.

 

Cheers,

Terry

[Starfire]

Here is my thread about the Clansman install, if you want to keep that info in one place:

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?43999-Clansman-Installation-in-a-Saracen-APC&highlight=clansman+saracen

 

Cheers,

Terry

[trophy160]

Certainly a big improvement and a nice vehicle. I do have some questions and comments:

1) I would suggest reverting back to reverse flow cooling also. On the conventionally cooled Saracens, the majority of the engine heat is expelled through the armoured "trunks" that go under the side windows and these are not present on the RC models. I don't believe that the beehives are big enough or situated correctly to cool the engine alone; many people who have messed around with the cooling system on the Mk 3 and 6 have had similar problems to yours.

2) Whether you do restore your cooling system or not, you can probably improve reliability by fitting an electronic ignition kit and a LOW PRESSURE electric fuel pump. The pump especially helps with vapour lock. High pressure (fuel injection) pumps should never be fitted with carbies and can cause all sorts of problems, especially fires.

3) Your seat pads are incorrectly installed. The front edges of them should wrap around the seat lids with the corners held in the leather pockets.

4) Why have you removed half of the spall linings?

5) Why have you mounted a Bren gun? The Mk 5 and 6 never carried them.

6) Can you post up some details of your GPMG?

7) Can you post up details of your radio install, with lots of pictures please? I'm part way through a Clansman install myself and it would be great to see how you did yours.

 

Cheers,

Terry

 

1) Regarding the beehives, well clearly in the case of the reverse flow they did provide adequate 'cross section' to allow sufficient air to enter the engine bay and to be exhausted out from the radiator grill, so in principle when working in reverse direction the same air flow should be possible. I do not know exactly where the 'trunks' extract air from in the conventional set up but I presume it is from the rear of the engine bay? That being the case then air flow across the engine will be warmed air from the rad as must be the case with my set up. It does seem to me that some extra flow through the engine bay and out of the beehives (using some secondary fans) could well do the job and clearly be simpler and less costly than reverting to reverse flow.

2) yes, had certainly considered the electric pump up near the tank, electronic ignition perhaps but it start well and clearly not going the address overheating/vapour locks if indeed that is my problem

3) Thanks for that, didn't know that

4) the spall lining was in poor condition and anyway had to be removed to enable rust to be removed. Refitting the spall looked to be an extremely difficult job, not to mention where I would get replacement parts from that would match the rest of it. I thought long and hard about it and in the end decided to remove it, the remaining lining will also come out.

5) I know, but I like it and as noted there are other aspects of the vehicle that are not 100% original

6) Yes will do, it is a replica of course

7) yes will do, of course one could argue that like the Bren, the Clansman should not be fitted to a Saracen. I have not completed all the wiring yet, but will take a photo of the bracket I make up, once again non standard!

[Starfire]

Thanks Nick,

 

It's your vehicle and you can do what you like with it. I agree that Clansman is not correct, but who can be bothered with Larkspur I plan on fitting a few cameras to mine too, so it doesn't need to be all original for me either.

 

If you're getting rid of your spall lining, I would be interested in a couple of the smaller bits of it that are missing from mine.

 

The fuel pump will help with vapour lock, as the increased pressure in the lines can assist with moving bubbles out and getting fuel into the carbie.

 

Cheers,

Terry

[fv1609]

Terry if you are after Dunlop Trakmark there is some for sale by the foot.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRAKMARK-in-Beige-Boat-Decking-etc-Hard-to-find-product-NSN-9330-99-881-8119-/301264605430?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_BoatEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item4624c510f6

[Starfire]

The trunk us connected to the top, rear of the engine bay under the hinges for the engine covers and between the pair of them have a fairly large cross section yours still has the box like structure that they connect to but it is blanked off at each end. I believe that some hot air travels under the floor cavity and exits through the pipes either side of the rear doors too. As far as I know, the problem with the beehives is not their size, but rather that they cause the hot air to stagnate in the engine bay, as the forward movement if the vehicle tries to force air in to them, while the fans try to force it out. I guess that as a simple and cheap test, you could try removing them before a road test and seeing if it still overheats? The other option would be to try shrouding them, much like the radiator on the Mk 3 and 6, leaving a sufficient gap for the air to escape. Some cardboard and tape should do the trick, for a test.

 

 

Cheers,

Terry

[Starfire]

Terry if you are after Dunlop Trakmark there is some for sale by the foot.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRAKMARK-in-Beige-Boat-Decking-etc-Hard-to-find-product-NSN-9330-99-881-8119-/301264605430?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_BoatEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item4624c510f6

 

Thanks Clive,

 

I'd like to get a roll and redo all of mine eventually, but I think shipping will be a killer. What I really need though is some of the missing Kevlar bits, which it appears Nick has, if he wants to part with them.

 

Cheers,

Terry

[Richard Farrant]

The trunk us connected to the top, rear of the engine bay under the hinges for the engine covers and between the pair of them have a fairly large cross section yours still has the box like structure that they connect to but it is blanked off at each end. I believe that some hot air travels under the floor cavity and exits through the pipes either side of the rear doors too. As far as I know, the problem with the beehives is not their size, but rather that they cause the hot air to stagnate in the engine bay, as the forward movement if the vehicle tries to force air in to them, while the fans try to force it out. I guess that as a simple and cheap test, you could try removing them before a road test and seeing if it still overheats? The other option would be to try shrouding them, much like the radiator on the Mk 3 and 6, leaving a sufficient gap for the air to escape. Some cardboard and tape should do the trick, for a test.

 

 

 

Cheers,

Terry

 

Terry,

The reverse flow fan blades are angled the other way to draw air in to the beehives over the engine and out through the radiator. What has happened on Nic's Saracen is that a past owner has removed the shroud (some people think them unsightly!) and fit conventional fans which draw from the front. There is no way the hot air is going to exit through the beehives in large volume and it ends being forced down past the gearbox and fuel tank so that the fuel pipes are subject to vapour locking. I have seen this before but these problems have only arisen in private ownership where unconventional mods have taken place. We had little problems when they were in service.

 

regards, Richard

[trophy160]

Thanks Clive,

 

I'd like to get a roll and redo all of mine eventually, but I think shipping will be a killer. What I really need though is some of the missing Kevlar bits, which it appears Nick has, if he wants to part with them.

 

Cheers,

Terry

 

If I have the bits you need, then you're welcome to them, but mine was not 100% complete so may not have the bits you need

[Starfire]

Thanks Nic,

 

I'll take some photos of what I'm missing tomorrow.

 

Cheers,

Terry

[trophy160]

I don't think there is going to be an immediate and/or simple answer to this problem and clearly I do need to prove exactly what the problem is, thanks for the various ideas suggested.

 

Perhaps I do have to reinstate full reverse flow but may try out one or two other things first. If I was to fit an electric pump up near the tank, I presume it can just be plumbed into the existing line, by which I mean leaving the mechanical pump in circuit, I can't think why I should not do this?

[Richard Farrant]

If I was to fit an electric pump up near the tank, I presume it can just be plumbed into the existing line, by which I mean leaving the mechanical pump in circuit, I can't think why I should not do this?

 

Nic,

I remember one of the early private owners of a Saracen was one of our club members who had his own garage business. He had similar problems to you and fitted an electric pump near the changeover tap as the pipe work is accessible also it is easy to take a feed from the battery. He had a manual control, ie a switch by the pump that he could flick on when vapour locking occurred or the engine showed signs of faltering. Retaining the mechanical pump of course. The pump pushes the fuel through rather than the mechanical pump drawing it from the tank and an area where the vapour locks could be occurring. A relatively simple solution to his problem ...... maybe worth trying.

[mallyb]

Wow" Done a Fantastic job:shocked:

[trophy160]

Nic,

I remember one of the early private owners of a Saracen was one of our club members who had his own garage business. He had similar problems to you and fitted an electric pump near the changeover tap as the pipe work is accessible also it is easy to take a feed from the battery. He had a manual control, ie a switch by the pump that he could flick on when vapour locking occurred or the engine showed signs of faltering. Retaining the mechanical pump of course. The pump pushes the fuel through rather than the mechanical pump drawing it from the tank and an area where the vapour locks could be occurring. A relatively simple solution to his problem ...... maybe worth trying.

 

Hi Richard, that's got to be worth a go

[Starfire]

Nic,

I remember one of the early private owners of a Saracen was one of our club members who had his own garage business. He had similar problems to you and fitted an electric pump near the changeover tap as the pipe work is accessible also it is easy to take a feed from the battery. He had a manual control, ie a switch by the pump that he could flick on when vapour locking occurred or the engine showed signs of faltering. Retaining the mechanical pump of course. The pump pushes the fuel through rather than the mechanical pump drawing it from the tank and an area where the vapour locks could be occurring. A relatively simple solution to his problem ...... maybe worth trying.

 

This is pretty much what has been done with mine, although the fuel tap and one of the filters has been removed. I'll get a picture or two of that as well. I'd eventually like to put it all back to factory, except for retaining the electric pump.

 

Cheers,

Terry

[trophy160]

I was thinking about how I might improve the air flow through the engine bay and more to the point ensuring that any hot air at the back might be vented. The area above the fuel tank does link with the engine bay, if I opened these vents would it allow air from the back of the engine bay to vent?

 

[Starfire]

I would be wary of doing that; in an RC Saracen, opening those will draw air through the fighting compartment in order to cool it down a little. With normal flow, hot air from the engine bay will be forced in. If you have any exhaust leaks, carbon monoxide would also come with it.

 

Cheers,

Terry

[Starfire]

Nic,

 

Here are pics of the spall liners that I'm missing or need to replace. Sorry for the delay in getting them - I've been pretty unwell for the last week or so.

 

Left and right are from the driver's point of view, looking forward.

 

Above the left rear door.

 

Behind the right rear fire extinguisher.

 

Firing port

 

Another firing port.

 

I'm not sure if anything is missing from here (above right escape hatch). I don't think so.

 

Not sure if anything is missing from here (above the left escape hatch). I don't think so.

 

Not sure if anything is missing from here (forward of the left escape hatch, behind the (missing) radio tray.

 

Behind the front left fire extinguisher.

 

Liner has been cut above the driver's head. I don't think that bracket is standard either.

 

All rear door liners are water damaged and shabby.

 

 

 

I'm located in Wayville, South Australia (5034), so I'd need postage to there.

 

Cheers,

Terry

[fv1609]

Thanks Clive,

 

I'd like to get a roll and redo all of mine eventually, but I think shipping will be a killer. What I really need though is some of the missing Kevlar bits, which it appears Nick has, if he wants to part with them.

 

Cheers,

Terry

 

Terry surely this pieces are not Kevlar but just Trakmark that covers a piece of foam rubber?

[Starfire]

Trakmark is the cover, but I understood that the spall liners under it were Kevlar? They certainly aren't foam rubber, although that is what some people use when cosmetically restoring a vehicle. Whatever it is, it is quite dense and heavy.

 

Cheers,

Terry

[Cold_War_Collection]

Hello everyone!

 

I hope as many of you as possible who live in the UK get to see the Canadian Lanc thats currently on tour! But, no to Saracen stuff.

 

Yes, Mk 6 with RFC. years ago, ours ran for a bit with no shroud, as it arrived here in Canada without one. That being said, we are having one made to be installed, as the Rig WILL have runability issues without it. Even with the Shroud installed, we are in the process of installing electronic Ign. and have re-routed the fuel lines to be far as possible from the engine block. We have used Stainless Steel Braided line, to help mitigate Vapour Lock issues. As well, we have wrapped the exhaust system with insulation to further keep heat moving out of the engine bay (we also work on older '60's american muscle cars here.. so there is lots of cross polination of runablity techniques employed at times.

 

Just installed the seats on the left side, oil cooler and tank, so things are moving nicely along. Got a package of goodies from William, so its getting a new set of lights today!

 

Cheers...and as a final thought, I hope that everyone drives on the street with a crew commander in the turret? Its a standing written rule here at the Collection that armor (and quite a few soft skins) can only play in traffic with a full crew. Camera is a great install and adds much to safety, but it takes one accident with an HMV to put us all in a sling.

 

Nick

CWC Canada

[Cold_War_Collection]

...I should spell check more often...

 

...So NOW on to Saracen stuff !

 

I can't type worth ...well...you know

 

Cheers

 

Nick

[Cold_War_Collection]

Trakmark is the cover, but I understood that the spall liners under it were Kevlar? They certainly aren't foam rubber, although that is what some people use when cosmetically restoring a vehicle. Whatever it is, it is quite dense and heavy.

 

Cheers,

Terry

 

I used to work on heavy armor (the newer stuff!) , and when I got onto the Saracen, the only "Spall" type material I ever found on the Mk. 6 was sandwiched between the original rear door and the Up Armor plate, but this wouldn't really act to prevent spall. RPG 7 or similar would still cause spalling into the crew compartment. Its more like spaced armor.

 

I took apart the Trakmark covered padding and found a dense hair like mat. This seems to me to be more of bump pad for the occupants than anything that would stop Spall. I spent a long period of time doing BDA's (Battle Damage Assements) in a "Arid country that remains nameless'' and studied the blast results that killed APC's and MBT's, most had Spall liners installed, and you will find that those liners tend to be harder material, layered up and glued to the interior. You can kill anything with a big enough, or well placed enough "item" that goes BOOM

 

Knowing how much kenetic energy Spall has when moving inside the hull, its doutfull that this padding would do much

 

I do have a question though. As I look at old pictures of Saracens in NI, I see some have padding, and some don't. Why is this? anyone have knowledge of this?

 

Cheers

 

Nick

 

CWC

Canada

[fv1609]

Trakmark is the cover, but I understood that the spall liners under it were Kevlar? They certainly aren't foam rubber, although that is what some people use when cosmetically restoring a vehicle. Whatever it is, it is quite dense and heavy.

 

Cheers,

Terry

 

I beg your pardon its not foam that is what my Shorland has covered with Trakmark. On the Mk 2 Pig I had the lining was a thick 'horse hair' matting covered with Trakmark, which I assumed was the same for Saracens.