Mr.Dozer Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Hello All Last Weekend i wanted to start my Belgian Spartan after some weeks, to charge the batteries and check the systems for the upcoming events this summer in August. Unfortunately the Engine did not start. Starter was turning at high revs, but not a single sign of ignition. First Thing i was thinking about, it was flooded. So i removed a sparkplug, but it was not unusual wet. Then i held it to the engine block to check the ignition spark. No sign of any spark while cranking the engine. Because of bad acessibility and complexity of the ignition system, and because i have a UK A1 recon engine in the shed, i want to change the engine now. First i would like to make sure that the recon starts and runs out of the Spartan. My question is about the wiring of the engine now in the workshop. I've seen some Videos on Y-tube, like the one of Paul D, but how does i have to wire it? My understanding is that i have to connect the 2 engine oil hoses provided with the engine to the Heat exchanger. Then fill in the engine oil, connect fuel supply to the carb and connect the batteries to the startermotor. I just want to check that the engine is starting and running, just let it run for about 30 seconds, so i think i dont have to fit a cooling system, right? But what wires else i have to connect where? (to the ignition system and what pin at the starterconnector i have to "powerize" for starting it?) Sorry guys, but time is running away, just 4 weeks to the only event this year over here and i don't want to miss it... Kind regards, Raph :blush: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowfat Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 I know nothing about J60s . but if the spark doesnt work on this engine why would it work on a new install? I would look at the coil,ht leads distributer cap rotor arm and earths first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 The J60 comes with all the ignition components installed on the engine, so if you change the engine there is a good chance it will resolve your problems. However, this seems a bit extreme for no spark. You should first remove your dash panel, gently pull it forwards and check the wires to the rev counter, since the ignition goes through the rev counter if this wire comes loose it wont start. Then remove the decks, drivers seat and firewall to give you better access. You should then start at the front of the engine, and remove the cover from the round ignition junction box. Mine had a loose wire coming out of the four pin plug into the ballast resistor. Then take the coil off your recon engine and swap it with your current one. If this doesnt make any difference it could be the ignition module, but this would be unusual unless you have wired it incorrectly which it doesnt sound like you have. Do you have a wiring diagram for the ignition system? If not I can post one up tomorrow when at home. It is worth an hour or so of investigation rather than a full engine change. I have no idea how to wire it up to run out of the vehicle, but have only ever seen it done for very short periods without coolant.. Good luck Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 The ignition modules do go wrong so if you do what Tim says and still have no luck it's worth changing the module or the distributor and seeing if that solves it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Thought you'd be in the beer tent Chris!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robin craig Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Raph, I agree with Timbo and Chris, changing the engine for the reason of a "no start" does not make sense. Listen to what they have said and work through it, it will likely be something simple and sure not worth changing an engine for, unless you need practice. R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Dozer Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share Posted July 20, 2014 Hello All Thank you very very much for your hints. Yesterday i've also removed/checked the "hidden fuse" of the rev-limiter on my Belgian engine as someome PM'd me. Unfortunately also no effect on the ignition. Next i want to check the wiring of the rev-counter as Tim told me. If this has also no effect on the engine i want to replace it with the UK one. Because now i also found some small Petrol leaks around the carb (membranes) and the engine had Problems last several times. When it was low idling and i pushed the accelerator pedal it started to "stumble" until the first 5-10 minutes of operating. I had to immediately release the pedal to prevent the ingine from shutting off. I hope wirings and connectors are interchangeable between UK and Belgian Versions...??? Thank you Tim, i have found a wiring Diagramm. But where is the ignition module located? i could't locate it on the engine. This would be my first engine change on a CVRT, i think it will not be an easy Task, but hope to do it within 2 Days. So i will learn doing it and get some practice. I also got some spares around and a friend also has a Sabre and a Striker over here and will help me out with spares. After removing the Belgian one i will start repair/recon it for using it as a spare one. I will take some Pictures and Keep you up to date! Many thanks, Raph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) Raph The module is located within the distributor. If you take the top of the distributor off you will see the rotor arm, module and 'chopper' which has 6 arms on it. You will then need to remove the rotor arm and unscrew the module. The nuts which hold the wires in place are very small so you will need a 1/4" drive imperial socket set. If you get to that stage and get stuck please shout as I did this recently so can give lots of advice. Tim PS this is assuming the Belgian ones have electronic ignition of course! PPS if you do decide to change the engine, planning and preparation are the key. Write out what you are going to do and the order in which you will do it... Edited July 20, 2014 by timbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryphos Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Greetings All! By some uncanny freaky coincidence, I spent a long frustrating afternoon at the warehouse trying to diagnose the ignition problem on my Belgian Alvis Spartan. Years ago it just quit one day and I'm only now giving it some serious attention. I swapped in a used replacement coil a few years ago but no luck. Today this is how far I got: I bought and tested a commercial 24v coil. I removed the stock coil from the Spartan with ignition on, I confirmed 24v on the yellow (+) coil wire and continuity to ground on the blue (-) wire. I attempted to check the distributor function by putting my meter (on resistance) between a ground and the blue wire. When I cranked I did get some fluctuation of the resistance, as if the connection to ground was being interrupted by the distributor. The fluctuation was more erratic than I expected, but I'm not sure how fast the digital meter is. I hooked up the coil and gave it a try thru the distributor. Not a sign of starting, not even with ether. I put an external wire and spark plug on the HV and cranked again. No sign of spark. It looks like I'll be pulling the cover next. I'm not sure what I should be doing systematically, though. I haven't tried or checked any of what's mentioned in the thread above. Anyway, I guess I could use some guidance as well. I'm hoping to get her running in the next week or two. There is a great Mil show coming up with a 10+ mile escorted convoy and I got the green light to run the Spartan unregistered on the road. It's a rare opportunity around here so I'd hate to miss it. Thanks everyone! Christos Edited July 21, 2014 by Gryphos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Christos I believe the J60 coil is actually a 12v coil....the ignition junction box contains a ballast resistor to drop the voltage, so this could be why your 24v coil has not worked, although this is starting to go beyond my understanding now! I will post up the wiring diagram and fault finding guide when I get home later today. Cheers Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryphos Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Christos I believe the J60 coil is actually a 12v coil....the ignition junction box contains a ballast resistor to drop the voltage, so this could be why your 24v coil has not worked, although this is starting to go beyond my understanding now! I will post up the wiring diagram and fault finding guide when I get home later today. Cheers Tim Tim, I continued exploring after my post and saw mention of that elsewhere as well. If I read correctly, the ballast resistors are circumvented during start to give the coil 24v for easier starting. I would have expected at least a hint of activity.I will be testing the original coil at both 12v and 24v. At this point, I believe it is something other than the coil. The wiring diagram and fault finding guide will be very very helpful! Thanks! Christos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Christos In the original setup, the starter circuit did indeed bypass the ballast resistor to give the coil a shot of 24v, but when you release the starter button this drops back through the resistor so it is only very short term. Note though that if you have the electronic ignition fitted (assuming Belgian vehicles did?) then the wiring was modified so that the starter circuit goes through the resistor too. If you dont do this then there is a good chance you will blow the electronic ignition module (ask me how i know!)... I have only just got home so as its a bit late I will post the diagrams tomorrow! Cheers Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryb Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Hi all Belgian CVRT do indeed have the lumenition electronic module fitted inside the distributor. Experience with non-sparking Belgian cvrt's has shown the main reason for ignition failure is rotor arm cracking/tracking, but some ignition modules have failed. Early symptoms of impending module failure are non start when hot, but once left for a while to cool will then start I think its just an age thing, as most Belgian vehicles, having so little use will probably be only on their 2nd engine, whereas British ones will have gone through quite a few engine changes, hence newer. Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 The attached may be of help. It is the description of the ignition circuit from the EMERs and the mod instructions for the electronic ignition. I dont really understand electrics but have always found a basic knowledge combined with a methodical approach does the trick. 201407230946.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryphos Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 The attached may be of help. It is the description of the ignition circuit from the EMERs and the mod instructions for the electronic ignition. I dont really understand electrics but have always found a basic knowledge combined with a methodical approach does the trick. [ATTACH]94683[/ATTACH] Thanks Tim! This is interesting reading. It reminds me of the saying "Two peoples separated by a common language" lol And the plot thickens...back of the gauge, loose wire in junction box, bad ignition module... I'm hoping for a loose wire :undecided: I'll be pulling the cap this weekend. The question is: Will I be able to reach all of these components with the just cap off or must I also remove the driver's firewall? Christos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Christos You may be able to reach the junction box but to get at the dizzy, sorry distributor, you definitely need to remove the drivers seat and firewall. My advice would be to remove them anyway as it only takes 20 minutes and will make your life a lot easier, especially when you drop a nut, bolt, spanner, phone etc into the engine bay! Good luck Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Dozer Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 (edited) Hello all Yesterday i was in the shed, removed the Belgian engine and swapped some parts to the UK engine. There are some little differences, i will post pictures for comparing it later. Uk engine is lifted in, so today i want to allign it proper and connect everything back, fill oil and coolant and hopefully can start it! Will Keep you up to date mates! Edited July 27, 2014 by Mr.Dozer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Dozer Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 (edited) Back again from the shed :cool2: IT RUNS!!! :-D Started on the button, runs smooth and also low-idling is very good! But found a little oil leak from the top of the filterbase, where the nut is located. So i have to change the seal ring but no problem, because deck and firewall are still off. I found some bolts on the recon-engine not properly tight. I strongly recommend to check all bolts (except the cylinderhead ones) before lifting it in! Thank you ALL very very much for your help! Great Forum, so very nice and gentle people here! If someone is interested, I will do a tutorial with some pics and want to explain the differences i found from the Belgian and UK engines and how to convert them in a easy way. Thanks my friends! Raph Edited July 27, 2014 by Mr.Dozer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Well done Raph. Yes always worth checking all the bits and pieces on these recons, but glad you are up and running... Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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