Chaindrive Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Hello all I am new to the forum and am seeking some information about a Fiat 18BL chassis that i have. The question relates to the rear wheels. Most pictures of the 18BL that i have seen the rear wheel spokes are round however the wheels on the chassis that i have are quite different. I thought that the wheels may have been changed from original until i stumbled across a picture of a 18 BL gun carrier with the same wheels. Any thoughts or information would be welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redherring Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Impressive find. In fact two impressive finds if I include the Lacre chassis! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Herbert Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Good luck finding the rest of it ! Any idea why the rear axle is lower than the wheel centres ? Was it also used on busses or fire engines where they needed the space for a gangway or water tank or pump for example ? Living in the UK it is amazing to see 100 year old metal that has been outside all its life with so little rust on it. Here the springs would probably have 1/2" of rust between each of the leaves and holes through the frame. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaindrive Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 Hi David i know a little about the Fiat 18 BL. The Italian army approached Fiat to design and build a military truck. The result was the 18BL. As for why the axle is lower than the wheel centres I can only speculate that it had something to do with the very heavy springs giving a lower overall chassis height. It was designed to carry 3.5 tonnes. I was surprised at the condition of the chassis also. Much drier climate here is much kinder to steel. I have located a 1910 Lacre chassis recently and it also is in good condition considering it has spent much of the last 100 years sitting neglected in a field exposed to the elements. I will start a new thread about that chassis soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Larkin Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 It's a FIAT 18 BLR. The R stands for rinforzato, which was the heavy haulage version. The attached photo is one that is under restoration in Italy by the Iveco dealer in Castelleone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaindrive Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 Hi Roy Thanks for the information. I have heard of the 18BLR. It was an upgraded version of the BL built later with upgraded springs and smaller wheels and lower top speed. Is this correct? So the correct age for this chassis may be around 1918? i hope someone can give me some more details on the 18BLR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runflat Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 (edited) The best (2 volume) book I know on early Italian vehicles is GLI Autoveicoli tattici e logostici del r. esercito Italiano fino al 1943 by Nicola Pignato and Filippo Cappellano. It's a bit difficult to find and, aside from being in Italian, probably won't take your knowledge of the FIAT 18 BLR much further forward. Happy hunting. Edited December 14, 2012 by Runflat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Larkin Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 To be honest, I know nothing about the 18 BLR. My information and the photo came from Nicky Armstrong, resident of Italy, restorer of early Scammells and FIATs and well informed about the preservation movement in Europe. It is apparently featured in Bart Vanderveen's book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaindrive Posted December 15, 2012 Author Share Posted December 15, 2012 I have been doing a bit more reading. It's hard to know how accurate information posted online is but the Fiat 18BLR might have started production in 1915. As for why the axle is set lower than the wheel centres it may be to facilitate the use of the sprag brake. There are two holes through the axle through which the sprag brake is attached. The lower axle position may be to allow for the correct angle for the sprag to be deployed. I have a diagram of the sprag assembly which I will post along with a close up of the rear axle in the next few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Do you have a front axle and wheels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaindrive Posted December 15, 2012 Author Share Posted December 15, 2012 Unfortunately no. All I have is what you can see in the first two pictures of this post. I will have quite a few years of parts searching ahead of me. It was rescued by me from a scrap yard. Before that it came from a deceased estate so I'm not sure of where the previous owner found this vehicle (he was a collector) . From what I gather the Fiat is a very rare truck in Australia compared to some other pre WW1 makes so finding the parts may be a lengthy ordeal. I know of only 1 other restored 18BL in Australia but I would assume there are others here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaindrive Posted December 16, 2012 Author Share Posted December 16, 2012 Here's a couple of photos. Firstly a close up of the rear axle with the two mounting holes on the lower part of the axle for the sprag. Obviously the springs are mounted higher than the wheel centres so the reason for the low axle position is more likely to have more to do with the sprag 'brake' . If anyone has any other theories why the axle is set low i would be happy to receive any comments. This drawing below shows the top view and position of the sprag attached in the up position underneath the fuel tank at the rear of the truck. It does not show how it was deployed as there are no visible linkages in the diagram. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Hi Chaindrive, The axle is possibly like that due to the fuel tank depth and keeping the sprag low makes it more effective. The ground clearance of the axle is little different to a normal diff housing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzkpfw-e Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Is this one? Wheels look very similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaindrive Posted December 16, 2012 Author Share Posted December 16, 2012 The back wheels look similar however the cabin front wheels lights and rear wheel grease caps are different. Also I don't think the chassis would be strong enough to carry a tank. This must be a very heavy duty version to carry that sort of weight whatever model of truck it is. A very interesting picture though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mammoth Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 The question of the rear axle beam being low arises because we are so conditioned to seeing a modern one piece floating axle arrangement. In the early days metallurgy was in it's infancy and even with shaft drive axles the load bearing beam was often seperate to the diff housing and drive shafts. (Republic carried the arrangement into the 1920's) This morphed into a one piece diff & axle housing, but with reinforcing ties underneath. In the case of chain drive there is no reason why the axle beam needs to go straight across and hence other design considerations can take a front seat. In the case of the FIAT the beam is not really load bearing and is acting more in a wheel alignment function, as well as ancillary functions suggested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaindrive Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 My theories as to the axle being low we're in response to the question asked by David at the beginning of this thread. I agree it is about average height for this type of truck. It is the same height as the rear axle of my similar age Lacre as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Herbert Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 How is it not realy load bearing ? I would have thought that the forces on it (down from the springs and up from the wheels, + fore and aft forces resulting from drive and braking) were exactly the same as any other beam axle. Plus as you say the forces resulting from keeping the wheels pointing the right way. It is certainly easier and cheeper to make it straight or nearly straight if only because it is much easier to machine the ends for the wheel bearings etc if the very substantial middle bit is not way out of ballance when it is going round on the lathe. Front axles on modern trucks are dropped so that the spring seats are lower which reduces the forces on the springs and to miss the sump, not just to be pretty. Neither of these reasions appear to be relavent here (the fuel tank is further aft on the drawing but of course there might have been a very short chassis version with the tank over the axle) and the sprags would work better if they were made longer to reduce the angle with the road rather than dropping the mounting points. Well done Chaindrive for finding a drawing. That will transform your search for the rest of the truck if you know what you are looking for. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Innes Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 There are some good pictures showing the chain case etc. here http://www.landships.freeservers.com/Fiat18BL_walkaround.htm I would agree that the axle carries all of the weight plus a little extra forward force exerted by the chains under load. As previously mentioned the dropped area might be to give the sprag brake a lower angle of operation which would better tend to stop the vehicle rather than lift it if the angle was greater. You would be quite a target stranded on a hill with the drive wheels off the ground! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaindrive Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 Hello Jack i probably should have mentioned it earlier. The link with the walkaround of the Fiat on this site was the first and best pictures I have came across showing very good detail of a lot of the parts. In fact the pictures at the bottom of the link with the chassis recovered from the river helped me to identify my chassis as being a fiat 18BL. Great set of pictures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaindrive Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 Correction . I should have said that the pictures were on the Landships site. My apologies . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSM Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 A worthy project and as you so rightly say, it is going to be a lengthy one. I trust the enclosed specs. are of some assistance. Early in 1916 the Central Flying School was in dire need of some heavy transport. AHQ in Melbourne had offered the choice of a Straker Squire or the FIAT 18BL. I believe the latter won the day and the attached is a page from the relevant NAA file in Canberra. From the same file a Model 18C was purchased by Eyes and Crowle in Adelaide in 1914. Good hunting and have a great festive season etc. Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) A worthy project and as you so rightly say, it is going to be a lengthy one. I trust the enclosed specs. are of some assistance. Early in 1916 the Central Flying School was in dire need of some heavy transport. AHQ in Melbourne had offered the choice of a Straker Squire or the FIAT 18BL. I believe the latter won the day and the attached is a page from the relevant NAA file in Canberra. From the same file a Model 18C was purchased by Eyes and Crowle in Adelaide in 1914.Good hunting and have a great festive season etc. Rod I like the bit in the spec. about the fuel tank being under pressure by exhaust gas :shocked:. Also appears to have a diff lock, nothing new then. Edited December 17, 2012 by Richard Farrant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaindrive Posted December 18, 2012 Author Share Posted December 18, 2012 A worthy project and as you so rightly say, it is going to be a lengthy one. I trust the enclosed specs. are of some assistance. Early in 1916 the Central Flying School was in dire need of some heavy transport. AHQ in Melbourne had offered the choice of a Straker Squire or the FIAT 18BL. I believe the latter won the day and the attached is a page from the relevant NAA file in Canberra. From the same file a Model 18C was purchased by Eyes and Crowle in Adelaide in 1914.Good hunting and have a great festive season etc. Rod Thanks very much Rod Some very interesting reading and lots of new information I had not known. Especially about the fuel tank being pressurised and the three types of braking used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaindrive Posted December 21, 2012 Author Share Posted December 21, 2012 I am always fascinated looking at a chassis as old as this and imagining what history it may have seen in its working life. I like to look for clues also which may tell a little about that past. The spockets for instance show very little wear indicating that they were probably replaced late in the Fiats working life. The engine mounts tell a different story. The one intact mount remaining is badly worn down due to movement of the engine mounts and vibration from the motor The other front mount has broken out The rear engine mounts are completely broken away Just going by this series of pictures the chassis had a long working life,probably coming to end when the engine catastrophically separated from the chassis due to neglect and wear of the engine mounts. After that it may have been cast aside and its running gear stripped out for use in other vehicles. It may have never been a hay trailer as it still has a few parts left where the small differential sprockets were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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