Not a Tiger thread.....

[Meteor mark 4B]

I will admit to have never seen a Tiger on the move, how many of us have? I cannot believe it would compare with a BRITISH Conqueror MBT in full flow across country. Our regiment had a Conq troop in each squadron, and believe me, a Conq on the move is a bit special. Tell that to the punters and they wouldn't believe you.......

[eddy8men]

does anyone own a running conqueror, i've seen dave arnold's but didn't find out if it's a runner but it looked like a real beast up close

 

eddy

[Meteor mark 4B]

Duxford run theirs I think.

[Richard Farrant]

does anyone own a running conqueror, i've seen dave arnold's but didn't find out if it's a runner but it looked like a real beast up close

 

 

 

 

I have seen Duxford's Conq on the move some years ago, very impressive, and REME Museum used to bring their Conq ARV out to shows for a trundle round.

[steveo578]

The IWM collection at Duxford has running Conquerors including a Mk2 ARV I don't think the I of W Conquerors are currently mobile -they do require a lot of TLC and fuel to make them move.

 

The size shape and presence of a Conqueror especially the huge gun certainly makes it the most impressive of all tanks.

 

Steve

[AndyFowler]

Last saw Duxfords on the move in 2008 they have a ARV also which the driver of the MBT said needed new tracks :??? The REME museum ARV has run at Great Dorset in the past and at a off road event !

[steveo578]

I would think the Littlesfield collection Conqueror is a runner and possibly the Brussels Tank museums example is mobile.

[Adrian Barrell]

Don't forget the Kubinka example which came from Duxford. Both were running at the handover ceremony, very impressive!

[Meteor mark 4B]

Sadly the ARV sounded a bit poorly! Good film from Duxford though, it looked liked the guns were not stabilized, no finer site than a Cent/Conq/Chieftain doing a cross country battle run with the gun staying exactly on the target.

[steveo578]

looks like they are locked with an internal travel lock, I was under the impression the Conqueror in particluar tended to carry the gun at high elevation (when not engaged on a target) when moving at anything other than a crawl to avoid fouling the barrel of trees obstructions.

[RecyMech]

If I understood what I read in Rob Griffins book correctly, there is no travelling stab on Conq, & the gunner did`nt even regain control of the main gun until several seconds after the tank had stopped moving.

 

Conq was not a MBT remember but a long range tank killer designed to pick off the JS3 from a rear position.....hence the designers gave it no 'fire on the move' capability.

 

Or did I read it all wrong ?

 

H

[Meteor mark 4B]

You are probably quite right. I have ways of finding out, watch this space!

[steveo578]

RecyMech

If I understood what I read in Rob Griffins book correctly,

Read page 59 more closely there was a stabiliser system in the Conqueror but it had an over-ride that cut in at 1.5mph mainly to avoid whacking the loader -this made fire on the move impossible as the barrel effectively rotated to high elevation (to avoid digging the overly long gun into the ground). but it still had a system to bring the gun rapidly into alignment with commanders FCT and gunners sights as soon as the thing stopped effective movement.

 

This had nothing to do with its tactical role of over firing Cents. if you read the whole of Bob Griffins book you will realise that in fact FV221 was the first MBT -it was to be the Universal Tank, whereas Centurion A41 was meant to be the last Cruiser:shocked: A45 its Infantry equivelent.

 

The point I was making about the Duxford video was the gun seems to be off system with the gun fixed in an internal travel lock hence the gun keeps it same bearing irrespective of the position of the tank -requiring careful driving -although its an arena not a battlefield:-D so careful safe movement is the main requirement.

 

Steve

[RecyMech]

Steve,

I was`nt disagreeing with what you said previously about the Duxford Conq, & I have read the book end to end. I've also served with blokes who had served on Conq with QOH, although I personally missed it by about about 6 years. Many of the anecdotal stories about Conq that I heard from those blokes are backed up by Rob Griffin in the book.

 

Your first paragraph there backs up exactly what I said about not being able to fire on the move in the accepted sense, & I'm certain in the book in question, somewhere, it emphasises that Conq was not designed to be used as an MBT in the modern sense but as a long range tank killer.

 

The first paragraph at the top right side of page 59 also backs up what I said about the gun being out of the gunners control for those vital few seconds after coming to a halt.

 

Howard

[steveo578]

Howard

 

To be fair it is probably wrong to call the Conquerors Powered gun control a stabiliser in the accepted Chieftain, Centurion even Sherman term, it allows the gunner to target track and the commander in the FCT also being able to track independently on the move, but cannot fire on the move as the gun is out of alignment with the gunners sight in elevation and possibly the commanders sighting equipment in both elevation and traverse, on stopping the weapon aligns with the gunners sight in elevation -it is already aligned in azimuth unless the commander decides to override the gunner with his FCT controls.

 

It was the loader that was the main reason why the Conqueror was not designed to fire on the move- the rounds were too cumbersome to be safely loaded underway. Remember the M103 the US equivalent had two loaders but didn't have any form of advanced gunnery control, stabilisation was discontinued after Sherman until the M60A3.

 

It's not a bad system for its age- trying to make an effective on the move gun stabiliser for a 68ton tank on Horstmann suspension with 1940-50 vintage electronics for a very large weapon -the Conq gun being 2854kg (bare) as opposed to 1780kg (bare) for an L11 (Chieftain) would be asking a lot. The stabiliser for the Centurion although capable of holding both elevation and azimuth did so only because of a comparatively slow traverse. but even the Israelis renowned for using Cents both with 20pdr and 105mm L7 gun armament, would rarely if ever fire on a spot (tank) target on the move- they tracked targets on the move in stabilisation and fired while momentarily stationary.

 

 

I'm certain in the book in question, somewhere, it emphasises that Conq was not designed to be used as an MBT in the modern sense but as a long range tank killer.

One of my first letters from Bob Griffin was about this very subject –I assisted Bob in minor ways on both his Conqueror and Chieftain books. Page 15 of Rob's book discuses the concept of the Universal Tank something F.M. Montgomery advocated in his February 1945 paper- in that the Comparative Class System should be eliminated. The result was the FV201 which was actually a barely changed version of the A45 infantry tank -the companion tank of the A41 Centurion Cruiser. Work continued on the FV201 until it realised that FV201 was incapable of being a tank for all seasons and it was officially discontinued in mid 1948. However work continued using the FV201 hull as the basis of a Heavy Gun Tank then numbered FV214 (with the FV221 as a 20pdr interim vehicle). The development of FV214 like the M103 (T43) was the result of the deteriorating European situation (Czech crisis –Yugoslavia and Berlin Blockade) followed shortly by the outbreak of war in Korea in the summer of 1950 left the US and British with a tank park apparently little more advanced than it was in 1945 –hence both tanks were designed around the same heaviest practical gun available the 120mm M58. For Britain this meant little more than designing a new turret big enough for the 120mm L1A1 carried on a virtually unmodified A45-FV201 hull.

 

The FV214 was never available in sufficient numbers to replace the Centurion although that was the original plan to have 1830 (Conqueror page 29) that is sufficient for a 50% requirement of 936 –that is about 18 full strength regiment in WW2 configuration or up to 40 light regiments which is easily up to the standard of BAOR when equipped with Centurion or Chieftain and would have in effect been the Capital-Universal-Main Battle tank (as the bard said what's in a name). But that was what it should have been, Britain faced with severe economic crisis and imperial retreat would not stump up for that number of new tanks so as a compromise scheme closely akin to the wartime Sherman Firefly was proposed and this would be an interim until something better could be developed. Fortunately in fairly short order the 105mm L7 gun for the Cent. and then the Chieftain.

 

As to the Conq being a limited tank killer –post war the British tank became little more than a tank killer in particular Chieftain used the same limited ammunition pallet relying on HESH as an explosive round.

[RecyMech]

Quote

It's not a bad system for its age- trying to make an effective on the move gun stabiliser for a 68ton tank on Horstmann suspension with 1940-50 vintage electronics for a very large weapon -the Conq gun being 2854kg (bare) as opposed to 1780kg (bare) for an L11 (Chieftain) would be asking a lot.

 

So very true, I have to agree with you there, no question. And, in a way it sums up a lot of British kit...that is to say, the 'thinking' was way in advance of its time but the available engineering & technology of the day could not quite deliver. Still with Conqueror for a minute...the Mollins case ejection kit in particular. (Mr Mollins school report may have read "Mollins tried hard but failed miserably")

 

Other examples might be the design of the Stalwart drive train & the Champ rear axle ? Being a bit 'zen' about it I think this sort of thing is why fans of British kit (me included) consider it to have 'soul'.

 

Howard.

[steveo578]

RecyMech

Still with Conqueror for a minute...the Mollins case ejection kit in particular. (Mr Mollins school report may have read "Mollins tried hard but failed miserably")

I really like that:-D I believe the Mollins company made precision machinery esp. for cigarette manufacture (so probably killed more people than the Conqueror ever could). Of course the environment in a tank with huge lumps of hot brass being flung around it was unlikely to succeed.

 

With regard to "soul" the photos of the restored loyd carriers shown in the Loyd restoration thread cetainly have a special British thing about them -that simple does what its meant to do mechanicals could not be from any other country

 

Steve

Edited September 8, 2010 by steveo578

[RecyMech]

Just getting away from mechanicals for a minute...something that has always stuck in my mind from the day it happened..(this is to do with my 'soul' comment).. being stationed in Hohne in the early 70s & very close obviously to Hohne ranges I often used to go out onto the ranges on the weekend (in my privately owned Champ I might add...that's another story) to explore the hulks (some of which I had towed out there myself...M47s & M48s) & gather the odd illegal souvenir.

 

There were a large number on Conqs out there on the ranges at the time slowly being shot to pieces. One I remember was little more than two hull side plates, hull roof & the remains of the turret, you could walk in through front & out through the back. She`d obviously taken a LOT of hits.

 

Getting up very close to these gave both me & the chap with me a VERY odd & eerie feeling & it's the closest thing to encountering a ghost I can ever recall. Don't get me wrong, I'm not supersticious or 'sensative' in any way & was even less so at the age of 20....but....

 

There was a distinct change in temperature, the hair stood up on my neck & you could practically here these once proud 65 ton beasts, now just battered wrecks, moaning in pain...it was a very strange & un-nerving feeling.

 

Howard.

[steveo578]

RecyMech

Don't get me wrong, I'm not supersticious or 'sensative' in any way & was even less so at the age of 20....but....

 

There was a distinct change in temperature, the hair stood up on my neck & you could practically here these once proud 65 ton beasts, now just battered wrecks, moaning in pain...it was a very strange & un-nerving feeling.

Spooky:shake: Some people reckon its due to uncontrolled discharge of energy- but no-one knows, most often on ranges I shake from being flaming cold and wet:-D. Anyway some photos of the white conq on OTA ATWG2 its either a Mk1 or one of the rebuilt FV221s these photos are from about 1998-9 when it was pulled off the be replaced by a chieftain the track snapped but re-accessed and detracked it was placed broadside on to again serve as a target. At this stage it was possible see clean through the hull from front plate to back plate.

 

When I first saw this tank it was almost intact with light damage- and just before the complainers respond this visit was a fully authorised.

 

Steve

[RecyMech]

Ohhh, thanks for sharing those pics, tis a sad sight indeed though.:cry:

 

H

[steveo578]

I couldn't find this one earlier but prepared to be shocked:shocked::shocked::shake:

 

 

 

Steve

[RecyMech]

Oi vay !....she must have taken thousands of hits.

 

It's not unlike the one I mentioned on Hohne ranges in back 75....long since returned to the soil by now I would think.

 

Ashes to ashes Rust to Rust !!!:cool2:

 

 

H

[steveo578]

RecyMech

Oi vay !.

 

Didn't realise you were a RSP -happy new year:-D:yay::dancinggirls::clap:

 

It was just at the right distance for the missile firer to easily pick up the target but it deteriorated much more when it was painted white. Of course quite a few went into the interior before exploding chewing up the interior.

 

Steve

[RecyMech]

No no, not of the big nose variety, my life already ...'OiVay' is just something I picked up from a mate in the army who used it quite regularly....you know how these things catch on & stick with you for life when you here them often enough.

 

Like using 'say again' instead of pardon....or 'dress back a bit' when someone is in your way....or 'on' instead of stop.

 

H