Bren guns used in Jeeps

[Wolfy]

Hey All,

 

Now I have the Bren can anyone tell me what configurations it was used on a Jeep please, better still a photo.

 

I've read they were used with a sandbag on the front...was this just by airborne?

 

Were they also used on a mount? Theres a Bren side mount on ebay was this 'officially' used or a field mod?

 

Thanks

 

Colt

[Morris C8]

Photo taken 1945 RA unit. 3 brens on jeeps.[ATTACH=CONFIG]31832[/ATTACH]

[Wolfy]

nice pic! I also found some here -

 

http://souvenirsas.ifrance.com/PgeAlbum-Jeep.htm

[Tony B]

When you say a 'Sandbag in front', do you mean underneath to catch the empty cases? A good idea in a moving vehicle, a hot case ejecting into your lap is very distracting.:-D

[Wolfy]

When you say a 'Sandbag in front', do you mean underneath to catch the empty cases? A good idea in a moving vehicle, a hot case ejecting into your lap is very distracting.:-D

 

 

Not really, I meant like this.......... :cool2:

 

 

[Tony B]

I wonder if that would actually work. For a start where do the ejected cartridges go?

[Wolfy]

I think the gun would be further back, its just been left forward here. I've seen some improvised brackets in one photo.

 

The cartridge would of course go in the footwell which takes us back to your earlier comment, youd have to be very careful to protect the family jewels :-|

[Tony B]

D**m right!. :clap:

[steveo578]

I think the plan for this type of set up is to deploy the tripod and spike it into the lower sand bag, which would give clearance for the ejection port. As shown in the photo it wouldn't work.

 

Most of the pics of the SAS jeeps show Vickers Go guns as primary weapon with Brens only for the driver.

[Tony B]

The SAS preffered Vickers K guns, not LEWIS guns on their jeeps. the K may look like a Lewis but is a tottaly diffrent beast. A Bren on a Jeep might look Macho, but efective, I'd doubt that.

Low mag capacity and slow rate of fire for a moving vehicle. The Bren SF tripod is a large beast , the butt of the gun fits on the very back of it don't reckonm ir would fit on the bonnet.

[Wolfy]

I think Steve means the integral bipod not tripod which would make sense and I might try this when its together.

 

Heck any period gun on a jeep looks nice

[steveo578]

Yep I meant bipod:blush::blush: with the feet into the lower front edge of the sandbag for grip. otherwise it will slide around the bonnet.

 

The Vickers K, a Go gun is a K built for AFV use (I used the wrong designation:blush: I really must have been tired:yawn:), it was based on the Vickers Bernthier -which is probably the ancestor of of the majority of the inter-war squad level weapons including the Bren and as Tony says has nothing to do with the Lewis.

 

Mk3 Bernthiers are probably still around in India with some of their numerous par-military units and uses the same mag. so easily confused at a glance.

[Morris C8]

Think your windscreen would not last long + removeing the Mag with the jeep bouncing along.

[steveo578]

Morris C8 Think your windscreen would not last long + removeing the Mag with the jeep bouncing along.

 

In a fire fight I don't windscreens had too much chance anyway, as to changing mags. the standard 28rd one wouldn't be a problem but 100rd would.

 

Steve

[Wolfy]

I think the windscreen would normally be down or removed anyway.

 

Was the Bren 100 mag the same as a vickers mag?

[Tony B]

No Wolfy, see the thread about a Bren drum mag. The drum was deleveloped to give the Bren a decent antiu aircaraft capability, along with the catridge catch bag. So in the spirit of Adapt , improvise and overcome. a Bren with a drum mag would work, trouble is how would you swivel it? I could see it being carried as dismount weapon, and if you had a guy built like an ox, maybe waist fire from a vehicle. But to be honest fire any weapon from a fast moving vehicle, you're lucky to hit the sky. The SAS tactic on airfeilds was shock and awe, hit fast a lot of stuff flying but slow to specifically hit a target. On any vehicle mount it pays to restrict the arcs to prevent such nasty occureences as shooting the driver, hitting your own engine....:-D

 

As for windscreens in combat, I know lets have a B***y great heliograph telling the enemy where we are, with the bonus of it spraying us with nasty sharp fragments if hit.

Edited July 31, 2010 by Tony B

[steveo578]

Tony B

No Wolfy, see the thread about a Bren drum mag.

 

I must be feeling tired again:yawn: there's nothing about the difference between the Vickers K and Bren 100rd mag in the Drum mag thread on this sub forum,

 

The difference is the feed extension is deeper on the K and is not on the centre line,

 

trouble is how would you swivel it? I could see it being carried as dismount weapon, and if you had a guy built like an ox,

 

As the drum gets in the way of the sights you would have no working sights on a standard Bren fitted with a 100rd drum mag- so whether it was mounted on a jeep or used as a dismounted weapon with a 100rd mag it would be a overweight burp gun- loosing the essence of the Bren -which is an accurate semi-auto rifle with a limited LMG support weapon capability.

 

As the K gun had sights as flexible mounts in RAF service, this was probably the reason it was adopted by the SAS.

[Tony B]

Long weekend Steve? The story I heard about the K Guns and the SAS was, Stirling was looking for kit in Eygpt. The RAf had a number of K's in storgage, having been fitted to things like Hinds and Harts. Being compact,light, high rate of fire, designed to be mounted on a moving vehicle and most importantly available, they were grabbed.

[tim gray]

As far as i recall the Vickers K Go was developed on the back of an Air ministry specification,

as above mounted on scarf rings etc, some minor applications in turrets.

 

The rate of fire was very high for its day so a bren drum would just be too slow to feed correctly even if the feed lips were set correctly.

 

Interesting point on the SAS use. The old Tamaya model had two studs acting as rests on the dash of the jeep. If you look closley at the photographs taken in north africa the studs are actually two pistol grips fitted to the weapon with trigger adaptations. Makes sense when you consider the hight of the guns in the forward mount and the original spade grips, makes it very awkward on the arm position. This is not something i have seen replicated on any of the jeeps i have seen around.

The K Go was also fitted with a butt and bipod arangement and issued to the Royal Marines for the Normandy invasion. Now that must have been one hell of a beast to drag around....i bet they were dumped fairly rapidly and changed for brens. Other than that i have only seen them on the remote mount on the top of the scout cars.

[Tony B]

The pictures of the camera gun in another thread are very similar to the K, never seen the Go to my knowledge.

[steveo578]

Tony B

Long weekend Steve?

 

I just tried using the search facility -the "anti bot" controls keep doing my head in.

 

I think a lot more K guns were supplied from storage in UK for use by SAS, Commandos, Recce Corps and RAC divisional recce batalions/regiments. The thing that gets me is that it seemed to be one of the few weapons to have been made obsolete by the disbandment of a regiment, as soon as the SAS were out of the way the K went too.

[steveo578]

Tim gray

The rate of fire was very high for its day so a bren drum would just be too slow to feed correctly even if the feed lips were set correctly.

 

The Bren and K gun drums were not compatable- even to the extent that a K drum mag. wouldn't fit a Mk3 Vickers Berthier either, but I doubt the feed spring would have any effect on its operation, of interest is that the alternative term for a 100rd Bren drum was "a high speed magazine". It is also significant that the later issued K guns had a lower rate of fire from the original unmodified aerial mounts (900 vs 700). Really for ground force service anything over 450-500rpm is a wasteful use of ammunition. It is significant the K gun had a cut away muzzle to reduce the gun rising out of control.

 

If you look closley at the photographs taken in north africa the studs are actually two pistol grips fitted to the weapon with trigger adaptations.

 

Can't say I noticed this most photos I've seen of the K have the standard trigger above the spade and the "sit up and beg" positon would have been the only way to control it especially in use on a vehicle.

 

The K Go was also fitted with a butt and bipod arangement and issued to the Royal Marines for the Normandy invasion.

 

The modified K for "infantry use" seems to have been built with components such as floor plate from a Mk1 VB and photos seem to show a 60rd mag. often fitted. I would expect that specialist SAS,SBS, Comando etc would be perfectly able to hump one around- modern infantry have to carry a GPMG which is a lot worse. They were issued for special ops, re-appearing after Normandy- in the Airborne Recce during Arhnem and Rhine crossing and Royal Marines in Walachern ops. The K were also favoured on PLM mounts on Daimlers A/C Dingos and Humber scouts. However if Churchill batalions had used PLMs I would have thought a pair of Brens would have been favourite especially as the standard Churchill stowage included 2 Brens.

 

Steve

[Wolfy]

Good discussions guys....where does this leave us with usage in Jeeps? :undecided:

 

The SAS used them on a pedestal and airborne on a sand bag, are we to assume all other usage was impromptu or limited?