question Assistance with Humber Pig Origins

[Rover8FFR]

Well I took some pics of another aquisition today and need help on history, details, technical etc.

 

This Pig used to belong to Dale Prior, who Clive has wrote about recently and due to extent of the late Dale's collection I have to wait to see if his lovely wife and son can track down the paperork / key.

 

If not advice on a way of obtaining both would be much appreciated.

 

I attach some images for everyone to help me get cracking.

 

Thanks in advance

[fv1609]

Wayne. I'm glad you posted up those pics as I have not seen it yet. When I was last at Jims he was away & it hadn't been recovered to his place.

 

Apparently a couple of pics have been found with Dale in it when he first got it, which I am looking forward to seeing. I'm going up to Dales place on Sat & I think I will call in on Jim's & take some pics of the chassis plate, if that is missing I'll cross relate that to the engine number to try to identify it. Then I can give you some history as I have quite a few records here.

 

I don't know if it was ever road registered so if I can help verify its identity that will make age registration easier. The number of the ignition key is on the barrel. Over the the key hole it should be stamped with something like FV16 or just 16 & then below the hole the number for the key.

 

From what I can see there is no passenger seat canvas, we need to fix you up with one of those. Is there a driver's seat cushion? If not I will withdraw one of the last few from sale & put that in. Also I have some headlight guards which need to go with it.

 

But it looks pretty complete & a nice project. I'm feeling envious of the thrill of the new acquisition!

[Rover8FFR]

Wayne. I'm glad you posted up those pics as I have not seen it yet. When I was last at Jims he was away & it hadn't been recovered to his place.

 

Apparently a couple of pics have been found with Dale in it when he first got it, which I am looking forward to seeing. I'm going up to Dales place on Sat & I think I will call in on Jim's & take some pics of the chassis plate, if that is missing I'll cross relate that to the engine number to try to identify it. Then I can give you some history as I have quite a few records here.

 

I don't know if it was ever road registered so if I can help verify its identity that will make age registration easier. The number of the ignition key is on the barrel. Over the the key hole it should be stamped with something like FV16 or just 16 & then below the hole the number for the key.

 

From what I can see there is no passenger seat canvas, we need to fix you up with one of those. Is there a driver's seat cushion? If not I will withdraw one of the last few from sale & put that in. Also I have some headlight guards which need to go with it.

 

But it looks pretty complete & a nice project. I'm feeling envious of the thrill of the new acquisition!

 

Swift and bold....I was hoping you would be up first....

 

Jim is away until late July but I arranged a pop in today whilst in the South East on business and Christine was very helpful.

 

I should have called you I guess as I had no idea about key #s over ignition??? Doh!

 

The lockers are pretty much Kerry Packered, but I found inside on a bench seat the tops to them all so my local friendly founder will be able to knock something up. I can Survey them up and draw them in CAD he can then cut them out precisely on the CNC machine......Hurrah I can see this one coming along quickly????

 

I tried to look under engine covers but locked (square end key????).

 

The pictures you talk about were shown to me by Alison and I felt very humble as she remembered the year by his overall colour and jumper colour.... Now thats a wife that noticed everything!

 

Any help would be appreciated. Alsion said she thought it was an early one......I have no idea????

 

No passenger seat at all just a framework over battery tray... drivers seat appears to have a swab and back rest.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Rover8FFR

[fv1609]

Wayne, ok I can see the driver's back rest but does it have a thick vinyl cushion? The passenger's seat is just an 'orrible frame with canvas seat & back. It is non-adjustable, rather higher because of the batteries, it is clearly uncomfortable for the bottom & uncomfortable to the head (limited clearance to roof) & not befitting commander who has to sit in it. I can give you a new seat canvas & possible an old canvas back rest.

 

Did you take any pictures of the chassis, engine or cab plates? The cab one will determine if it was made by Sankey or ROF Nottingham or ROF Woolich. I think Alison meant it is early in the sense that it is a Mk 1. The ERM & cab plate will determine its age. It could be an early chassis & late body or the other way round.

 

If you don't have pictures of the plates. Do you have any pictures of the sides to the rear of the side doors or the catches on the pistol ports, that can indicate who made it.

 

Yes the engine bay is locked with 2 square holed locker catches on each side.

 

Good that you can get the metal work cut, at least there are no fancy round bits like on a GS.

 

Not to worry if you have no more photos. I'll take some for my own nosiness & it could be used as independent verification if the need arises.

[Rover8FFR]

Wayne, ok I can see the driver's back rest but does it have a thick vinyl cushion? The passenger's seat is just an 'orrible frame with canvas seat & back. It is non-adjustable, rather higher because of the batteries, it is clearly uncomfortable for the bottom & uncomfortable to the head (limited clearance to roof) & not befitting commander who has to sit in it. I can give you a new seat canvas & possible an old canvas back rest.

 

Did you take any pictures of the chassis, engine or cab plates? The cab one will determine if it was made by Sankey or ROF Nottingham or ROF Woolich. I think Alison meant it is early in the sense that it is a Mk 1. The ERM & cab plate will determine its age. It could be an early chassis & late body or the other way round.

 

If you don't have pictures of the plates. Do you have any pictures of the sides to the rear of the side doors or the catches on the pistol ports, that can indicate who made it.

 

Yes the engine bay is locked with 2 square holed locker catches on each side.

 

Good that you can get the metal work cut, at least there are no fancy round bits like on a GS.

 

Not to worry if you have no more photos. I'll take some for my own nosiness & it could be used as independent verification if the need arises.

 

Lots of qusetions m8!

 

I photographed what was obvious including chassis stuff. Couldn't access engine bay so can't assist further on that one with detail??.

 

I am guessing from my simple research that it is a Mk1. (Didnt Mk2s have cattle grid on front?)

 

It ha no signs of the lower protection panel that stopped squaddies getting ankles blown!

 

I am still in Chelmsford tonight so if there is anything I can do on way back to Hereford let me know in advance of your commute.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Rover8FFR

[fv1609]

Wayne, it is definitely a Mk 1. It has no barricade ram as you say. 99% of Mk 2s had them but not all. However I used to have a Mk 1 with a ram & there is one your way with one still fitted!

 

I'm preparing some labels for your pictures of where to photo. So don't go to bed yet.

[fv1609]

I think there is a Generator Panel No.1 ie has a single speed 12-amp dynamo which would mean it was a FV1611 ie APC role (yes I know people will argue that its not a real APC but it is for practical purposes as opposed to FFW role) It has no winch so it is a FV1611(A).

 

Try to find the engine serial no, not easy as the side plate has been removed in this picture, you may need a mirror.

 

 

Just a close up of the profile of any part of this vertical joining piece.

 

 

 

Should be FV16 or 16 & below a 1 or 2 digit number on the face of the barrel..

 

 

The crucial thing here is the 5-digit serial number on the top line. ERM should be the there but that can be deduced from the S/N.

 

[Rover8FFR]

Clive

 

Thanks for the help on this. We have established it is a FV1611A and where it was put together.

 

I am sorry for missing the Data plate as I was a little tired and driving back home when I popped in to get the other details.

 

Forgot to mention that the top lids for the front and side lockers are in the rear of the Pig so will definately be able to refabricate these and the wheel arches, which have perished.

 

Do you have any clues on the div/ regt marking that are prevelant on the front nose/ rear doors. Also whilst the pictures don't clearly show FV1611A appears to have been painted a blueish grey over the DBG??? Any thoughts..

 

I attach as much for other Humber enthusiasts the pics I took yesterday afternoon.

 

I am back at on Tuesday with Alan to collect the LTWT and will do the best I can to get the missing snaps/ info.

 

I noticed the request for the front cab/ rear body join so will do my best to snap that.

 

Cheers

[fv1609]

Wayne

 

The lids were put in the rear for safe keeping in case these fell off during transit!

 

The badge is 4th Guards so do some searches on that basis. I'm afraid I know very little about the structure of British Army Units & even less about their markings, other than a few obvious ones.

 

I think the paint is just DBG that has changed with time.

 

When you get it home & pressure wash it DON'T direct the jet at the radiator shroud canvas as you'll probably blow a hole in it.

 

The barrel key is FV16 - 15 I think you said, so has anyone got a no.15 key for a Switchboard No.1? Although I have barrels I have never got round to fitting one, this may be easy enough but releasing the barrel I believe means dismantling the switch panel & pressing a spring loaded lug near the end of the barrel. I think with the key inserted, the key itself does not turn but it allows the ignition switch to become free to turn.

[Rover8FFR]

Wayne

 

The badge is 4th Guards so do some searches on that basis.

 

4th Guards! Mmmm? Is that RDG, Coldstream, Grenadier, Scotts, Irish???

 

Help anybody

[Rover8FFR]

Wayne. I'm glad you posted up those pics as I have not seen it yet. When I was last at Jims he was away & it hadn't been recovered to his place.

 

Apparently a couple of pics have been found with Dale in it when he first got it, which I am looking forward to seeing. I'm going up to Dales place on Sat & I think I will call in on Jim's & take some pics of the chassis plate, if that is missing I'll cross relate that to the engine number to try to identify it. Then I can give you some history as I have quite a few records here.

 

I don't know if it was ever road registered so if I can help verify its identity that will make age registration easier. The number of the ignition key is on the barrel. Over the the key hole it should be stamped with something like FV16 or just 16 & then below the hole the number for the key.

 

From what I can see there is no passenger seat canvas, we need to fix you up with one of those. Is there a driver's seat cushion? If not I will withdraw one of the last few from sale & put that in. Also I have some headlight guards which need to go with it.

 

But it looks pretty complete & a nice project. I'm feeling envious of the thrill of the new acquisition!

 

Clive are you still going Saturday and did you want to do data plate search?? The passenger seat is just the frame with no material covers. also lids to battery boxes appear to be missing! Are these obtainable? May be another fabrication exercise!

 

The drivers seat does have the seat base as well albeit it is coming away on the side where the sides are stitched together. You will need to tell me price of seat base/ headlight guards.... I will paypal money to you as before if that's okay.

[fv1609]

Wayne

 

I'm going Saturday & will try to visit your Pig. I'll try to remember to take my inspection camera on a long bendy thing to capture the engine & chassis plate & also see if there is a chassis no. stamped on the upper box section - it is rare to find this though.

 

As far as the other items go, it is very difficult as I want to be fair to you & to the family. I was selling the light guards separately, but once I realised they were missing from this Pig I withdrew them & allocated them to your vehicle. So I said to Alison they should be part of the deal as no doubt in due course Dale would have fitted them on, which she agrees. They are quite well made but they are not the original factory finish ones. Whether that was a REME remake or a previous owner I don't know but they will start you off with something.

 

The same thinking applies to the passenger seat base, I will find one & include it as these are essentials really. It sounds as if the driver's seat is there & usuable. If you wanted to buy a 1964 NOS dark green one then that is £20 that might be the last one although I still have a number of the lime green ones made for NI in 1990 which would look odd in a Mk 1.

 

Ah battery lids I had a couple but they got sold, to go in a Scamell I'm afraid:shocked: But I will look & see if there any more but they were £10 each I think. Also in the non essentials is a canvas. There were 2 new ones. I have sold one, another is already allocated, they were £200. I have found another, it has been used but is in very good condition & is £150 if that's any good.

[Rover8FFR]

Wayne

 

I'm going Saturday & will try to visit your Pig. I'll try to remember to take my inspection camera on a long bendy thing to capture the engine & chassis plate & also see if there is a chassis no. stamped on the upper box section - it is rare to find this though.

 

As far as the other items go, it is very difficult as I want to be fair to you & to the family. I was selling the light guards separately, but once I realised they were missing from this Pig I withdrew them & allocated them to your vehicle. So I said to Alison they should be part of the deal as no doubt in due course Dale would have fitted them on, which she agrees. They are quite well made but they are not the original factory finish ones. Whether that was a REME remake or a previous owner I don't know but they will start you off with something.

 

The same thinking applies to the passenger seat base, I will find one & include it as these are essentials really. It sounds as if the driver's seat is there & usuable. If you wanted to buy a 1964 NOS dark green one then that is £20 that might be the last one although I still have a number of the lime green ones made for NI in 1990 which would look odd in a Mk 1.

 

Ah battery lids I had a couple but they got sold, to go in a Scamell I'm afraid:shocked: But I will look & see if there any more but they were £10 each I think. Also in the non essentials is a canvas. There were 2 new ones. I have sold one, another is already allocated, they were £200. I have found another, it has been used but is in very good condition & is £150 if that's any good.

 

All understood and noted regarding light covers. The drivers seat is intact and complete and in the dark green so we can review that. The passenger seat comment is accepted. Battery covers would be nice, but lets see where we get. They aren't a massive issue and lets face it if there isnt that elusive part to find then it taints the excitement of the chase?

 

Next time I see Alison I will take her some flowers and probably take Ashley out in my car as he liked that. I'll come up with something to show my appreciation to a thoroughly nice family.

 

Don't go to Jims if it's difficult as I am going Tuesday to collect the Lightweight and will be in rag order so I can crawl around if needs be.

[fv1609]

Wayne I've found a passenger seat back canvas you can have. I don't think it is original but it did me for a while until I got the correct thing. Nice idea about the other things. I'll see how the day pans out but I would like to see it & it might help if there is need for verification of details at some point in the future.

[Rover8FFR]

Wayne I've found a passenger seat back canvas you can have. I don't think it is original but it did me for a while until I got the correct thing. Nice idea about the other things. I'll see how the day pans out but I would like to see it & it might help if there is need for verification of details at some point in the future.

 

See how you get on and valid point on authenticity etc. You mention Canvas??? I assume this is the canvas that goes over the roof/ rear????? I would like to know more about what this was for if it covered a armoured enclosure unless it assisted with C&C in the field? The £150 is not an issue and if my FV 1611 should have one then yes please.

[fv1609]

Wayne it was a standard fitting to the Mk 1. It goes over the roof & held up by the roof frame to given a layer of air to help reduce the heat of the sun. It was tied down to the various lashing points.

 

 

 

 

Look at the markings. ROF/W 1959 So would have been fitted to a Woolwich pig like yours. In case you're wondering if it came of yours. If it did it would have rotted away, this has been stored & something Dale bought in the recent years.

 

[Rover8FFR]

Wayne it was a standard fitting to the Mk 1. It goes over the roof & held up by the roof frame to given a layer of air to help reduce the heat of the sun. It was tied down to the various lashing points.

 

 

 

 

Look at the markings. ROF/W 1959 So would have been fitted to a Woolwich pig like yours. In case you're wondering if it came of yours. If it did it would have rotted away, this has been stored & something Dale bought in the recent years.

 

 

Thanks for explanation. In that case please set aside for me I will purchase it. I did wonder what the narrrow gauge rails were for on the roof I photographed.

[fv1609]

Right ok that's got your name on it.

[Rover8FFR]

Right ok that's got your name on it.

 

Smashing and thank you

[alan turner (RIP)]

so your pig could have been one of these under constrution at Woolwich Arsenal in the early 50's. and they still had narrow gauge 18"track at that time.

 

From The now dispersed accross the country RAWHS Collection

[fv1609]

Alan, nice to see those all, there were a couple that I missed first time around although they might have gone in my end of year hard drive break up.

 

Wayne, I took Alison up there today. Your chassis plate is indeed intact & I'll give you the history tomorrow. Anyway a few pics I took. Can you spot the differences?

 

 

 

 

 

[Rover8FFR]

Alan, nice to see those all, there were a couple that I missed first time around although they might have gone in my end of year hard drive break up.

 

Wayne, I took Alison up there today. Your chassis plate is indeed intact & I'll give you the history tomorrow. Anyway a few pics I took. Can you spot the differences?

 

 

 

 

 

 

yes indeed

someone was busy. i am delighted you found plate and excited to learn origins.

 

i hope Alison was okay. comms later i guess you had a long day

[fv1609]

 

Chassis Serial No.21333

ERM 13 BK 33

FV1601(A)

Engine No.6190

Contract No. 6/VEH/27455

Date in service 4/12/53

Delivered to 31st ‘B’ Vehicle Depot Church Broughton

Receipt Voucher No. CBR/R/4454

Converted to FV1611(A) 1959-60

Struck off 9/8/67 OSDD Ruddington

Sale No. 93

Lot No. 718

Sale price £40

 

Note that it was originally built as a GS Truck in 1953. Many Pig owners will claim that their Pig was built in the 1953/4 period, this is incorrect. The FVRDE design document (No.9187) for the prototype Pig was not issued until 1955 with the 20 vehicles made in 1956. Troop trials finished in 1958, the design document (No.9224) for the FV1611 & FV1612 was first issued 6/11/57, rewritten 20/6/58 & finalised 25/3/59. Production could not have been before this.

 

Yes it takes a lot of time, this has taken over an hour to put together & verify. Each trip to Reading is a 4-hour round trip. Today I need to photo & catalogue a lot of items I brought back for sale & then put them up on the forum. But I know Dale would have made similar efforts to help my wife if the situation was reversed. But I can see the sorting of things will take at least a year.

 

If you study yesterday’s pictures you will see some additions which are with Alison’s compliments:

 

Driver’s seat

Passenger’s seat canvas

Passenger’s back canvas

2 x periscope brow rests

2 x battery box lids

Inter-battery connection lead

2 x rear side locker lids (“NOS” but grubby)

2 x head mesh boxes

2 x used headlights (I have these here)

[Rover8FFR]

 

Chassis Serial No.21333

ERM 13 BK 33

FV1601(A)

Engine No.6190

Contract No. 6/VEH/27455

Date in service 4/12/53

Delivered to 31st ‘B’ Vehicle Depot Church Broughton

Receipt Voucher No. CBR/R/4454

Converted to FV1611(A) 1959-60

Struck off 9/8/67 OSDD Ruddington

Sale No. 93

Lot No. 718

Sale price £40

 

Note that it was originally built as a GS Truck in 1953. Many Pig owners will claim that their Pig was built in the 1953/4 period, this is incorrect. The FVRDE design document (No.9187) for the prototype Pig was not issued until 1955 with the 20 vehicles made in 1956. Troop trials finished in 1958, the design document (No.9224) for the FV1611 & FV1612 was first issued 6/11/57, rewritten 20/6/58 & finalised 25/3/59. Production could not have been before this.

 

Yes it takes a lot of time, this has taken over an hour to put together & verify. Each trip to Reading is a 4-hour round trip. Today I need to photo & catalogue a lot of items I brought back for sale & then put them up on the forum. But I know Dale would have made similar efforts to help my wife if the situation was reversed. But I can see the sorting of things will take at least a year.

 

If you study yesterday’s pictures you will see some additions which are with Alison’s compliments:

 

Driver’s seat

Passenger’s seat canvas

Passenger’s back canvas

2 x periscope brow rests

2 x battery box lids

Inter-battery connection lead

2 x rear side locker lids (“NOS” but grubby)

2 x head mesh boxes

2 x used headlights (I have these here)

 

Absolutely fantastic and I will speak to Alison to say thank you and I will do what I suggested next time I see her. A massive thank you to you also Clive.

 

Overcome with excitement like a little boy in biggest sweety shop :-D:-D:-D

[fv1609]

Wayne I have not been able to find an earlier pics of your Pig. The nearest I have each side are 13 BK 14 & 13 BK 44.

 

I looked closely at your markings. They seem to have been painted on, albeit very carefully, by someone who was not a professional sign writer. Having said that they may have been touching in existing signs which may be entirely legitimate. Even the Union Flag, which is in the correct place, has been touched up in this way.

 

Can you make out 2 badges that look familiar on this Pig? This was 17 BK 51 taken 25 years ago awaiting restoration!