Oily's gearbox Woe's -continued....

[oily]

Ok, all you knowledgable lot...:-) As you may remember, my Saracen broke down:-( last September, with apparent intermittent loss of drive in ALL gears (-read ALL gears, all at the same time), after parking-up and allowing to cool for 15mins, drive was re-established:-|...journey, 20 miles or so, continued until 4 miles from home, then drive was lost again. Recovery was called , and after about an hour we were trailered back to yard.....whereby drive 'reappeared' again. Anyhow, what with a nasty accident, resulting in a spell in hospital, and 3 months off work, inclement weather, and then subsequent Carpal Tunnel surgery 5weeks ago, I was only recently able to investigate things a little further,.... yesterday, Sunday 18th April 2010

I managed to remove the Oil Level/Filler Plug from the Flywheel.... having been sold what was supposed to be the correct tool, it seems to be one for a ferret? (socket part was too big), so I carefully used a 1" socket,.....

According to the manuals the oil level should be flush with the filling hole with the aperture at the 12 o'clock position.....I checked the level, the existing oil was very, very clean:D, but there was not enough of it, it would appear! as I ended up having to put in almost 2.5 ltrs:blush: of new OM13 Equivalent, (-Morris Lubricants, Liquimatic No.1)..... Does this seem to be rather a lot to top up with?

I rechecked the Oil level in the gearbox, this was still where it had been since last time I drove it, (-which, incedently was the last time I topped up the gearbox, using 1 ltr of oil)

When I checked the level in the gearbox, I noticed that it smelled sort of 'burnt', it also seems very 'thin', and not like 'engine oil', which is what I'm led to believe should be in the gearbox... it was very similar in viscosity to OM13!, so I'm wondering if it was incorrectly filled?:shocked:.... (I'm hoping this is the cause of the 'burnt' smell, ie oil getting too hot, due to wrong grade/type)... also being very, very thin it may account for the seemingly high speeds (55mph +!, I don't think the engine was replaced with a B81!) my Saracen was capable of ?........

Can anyone veryfiy the correct specification oil for the GEARBOX, TRANSFER BOX, BEVEL BOXES/TRACTA JOINT HOUSINGS, and HUBS, please, because I think I'll replace the lot, and make doubly sure they are full of the correct oils.....

Does the fact that, the flywheel oil level was as low as it was sound like it was the cause for the intermittent loss of drive? my 'limited' understanding of the fluid flywheel/pre-select system seems to indicate this could be the case....

Can anyone shed any light here?

 

Help much appreciated!

 

regards to all,

 

Oily:cool2:

[Richard Farrant]

Hi Oily,

 

Well I would say that you have a flywheel leak, either seal or plugs, there is around 9 pints capacity and it was always reckoned that if you had to put in one pint or more, then it should be rectified. With a low oil level in the flywheel, the oil has to work harder and thus overheats.....this may be why drive was lost until it cooled down. I have actually come across a Saracen that ran low and the flywheel inner member expanded that much it locked into the flwheel, you could see the siezure of alloy in it.

 

The gearbox oil is SAE 30 engine oil..........although when in service latterly, a multigrade was used, in engine and gearbox, OMD75 then OMD80. All other levels, ie transfer and bevel boxes, hubs, etc are SAE 80w/90 or 90EP. If you gearbox smells burnt, then bands could have been slipping, adjustments should be checked as the self adjusters may well be out of range if worn badly and you can pedal up until the cows come home, with out any adjustment taking place.

 

Richard

[oily]

Thanks Richard, how do I go about checking the adjustments, as I don't have the relevant parts of the manuals for that, I think it involves taking the top cover off the gearbox, but that's as far as I know...:blush:

[Richard Farrant]

Thanks Richard, how do I go about checking the adjustments, as I don't have the relevant parts of the manuals for that, I think it involves taking the top cover off the gearbox, but that's as far as I know...:blush:

 

The pressed steel cover on the box has to be removed, the one with 1/4" setscrews. A special tool is required to measure the busbar heights, the best thing to do is to take a photo of the adjusters and I will tell you if there is excessive wear on the bands, that will save a bit of messing around.

[oily]

Righto, Richard, I'll try and get on with that, this week, one afternoon.....

 

many, many thanks:D

[haybaggerman]

Good luck Oily,

 

I'm learning here too, for instance, I had assumed my ferret flywheel tool would also do my saracen when it arrives.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[oily]

....the woe's have returned.... it is a very leaky leak in my saracen's flywheel! ...bugger it! anyone any ideas as to prices for the seals, or for a new flywheel, in case mine is buggered through overheating... floor damn near cooked my feet on Monday!:nut:

 

and roughly how long to do the job?

Edited July 2, 2010 by oily
additional info

[haybaggerman]

Hi Oily

 

I can confirm that the ferret flywheel tool does fit the saracen

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[montie]

Hi Oily,

 

Not good news at all, but then, this is what is having an old MV as a priced possession!

 

Have you opened the gearbox yet? I'm hoping that you don't have too much damage to the brake bands.

 

Good luck,

 

Monty.

[haybaggerman]

Hi Guys

 

Reading this thread it seems that the transfer box and gearbox have different oils, (SAE30 in gearbox & EP90 in transfer box etc). However, according to my manual it says that the gearbox and transfer box share the same lubrication and my impression was that the same filler and dipstick do both.

 

Which is it please?? as I have found gearbox oil is a little low.

 

Thanks

 

Paul

[oily]

Hi Oily

 

I can confirm that the ferret flywheel tool does fit the saracen

 

Cheers

 

Paul

then the tool I have isn't a ferret one, or my plugs are not correct ones....

[Richard Farrant]

Hi Guys

 

Reading this thread it seems that the transfer box and gearbox have different oils, (SAE30 in gearbox & EP90 in transfer box etc). However, according to my manual it says that the gearbox and transfer box share the same lubrication and my impression was that the same filler and dipstick do both.

 

Which is it please?? as I have found gearbox oil is a little low.

 

Thanks

 

Paul

 

Paul,

 

Separate oils, as you have described.

[haybaggerman]

Paul,

 

Separate oils, as you have described.

 

Thats very odd. I have removed the covers and found seperate filler and dipstick for gearbox and transfer box, as you say. Why on earth does my manual go through how to check gearbox oil level, but just says that the transfer box shares the same lubrication system as the gearbox?

 

Was there a different gear/transfer box on some saracens?

 

Paul

[Richard Farrant]

Thats very odd. I have removed the covers and found seperate filler and dipstick for gearbox and transfer box, as you say. Why on earth does my manual go through how to check gearbox oil level, but just says that the transfer box shares the same lubrication system as the gearbox?

 

Was there a different gear/transfer box on some saracens?

 

Paul

 

Paul,

 

Where did you get your manual from? Or more to the point, what edition is it. I have seen a lot of British vehicle manuals, and copies, on the market that are early editions and not updated, this means there can be mistakes and changes that have not been entered into them. In the army system, publications were regularly updated and amended.

 

There were a small number of Ferret Gearbox / transfer boxes that shared the same oil ( 30 engine oil ), but from memory they were only identified by some stencilling on them.

[haybaggerman]

This one came with the saracen, I think it was updated in the early 70's, but I'll check

[Richard Farrant]

This one came with the saracen, I think it was updated in the early 70's, but I'll check

 

Just looked at the Servicing Schedule for Saracen, and definitely no mention of shared oil, not that I thought there was. Sounds like an error in the manual.

[haybaggerman]

just looked, the manual is from 1976. Obviously a bad year for manuals

[oily]

..... ah! it never rains, but it pours!..... now that I've just had my other wrist operated on (Friday 06/08/10) for Carpal Tunnel problems, my saracen's fluid flywheel is gonna have to wait EVEN longer to be replaced....!