Runflat

The prospect of another Crossley-Kegresse has got me scurrying off to see what I can find in the archive here. I'm fortunate to have a near complete set of the Crossley Register's newsletter; and way back in October 1985 Ian, then of Macclesfield, described his vehicle as being one of three known - the others being at Milton Keynes (i.e. the one in The Automobile) and Windsor (i.e. Tony Oliver's). He also described his as being based on the 3 ton commercial (Kegresse rated at 30 cwt), with the other two being based on the 14hp car (Kegresse version rated at 15/20 cwt). It was said to be serial number H320. It sounds as if he had his work cut out: It is thought to have survived due to its use a stationary engine for farming machinery when it was struck off in the mid 30's. Consequently the engine and forward (main) gearbox are fairly well worn... but the Kegresse bogie appears to have lived in the duck pond with the mean water level almost covering the eight pairs of load carrying wheels. This has dissolved a number of the wheels (new ones now cast) and agglomerated the balls and tracks of their 32 ball races... In the Summer 1991 edition it is reported that Ian recieved a commendation from the Transport Trust Awards. Where is it now?! This would appear to be a unique vehicle that shouldn't be hidden.

Hi, we've touched on the Crossley-Kegresse survivors here: http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?20996-Kegresse Tony Oliver (History on Wheels Museum) has had his example well over a decade, so it won't be that one. The one mentioned in The Automobile magazine was said to be being restored in Milton Keynes (and restoration didn't progress very far); so your friend's example is either the one said to be with the Army Museum or a fourth vehicle. It sadens me that if it went to Bovington that they subsequently disposed of it outside of the museum network. Now that they have a profile on this forum they may wish to comment. Did you get to see the vehicle / have any photos?

Yes, definately a 12/16 Sunbeam (or Rover-Sunbeam). We have discussed the WW1 numbering system here: http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?8436 There are lots of unanswered questions about it but relatively clear that M70010 was issued well into (one of) the series. As such I'm interested in the suggestion that the photo dates from 1915. Are you certain on the date? Incidently, I've also seen Sunbeams with numbers M70049 and M70054. Yours and these may all have been registered as part of the same batch. That said, and assuming the prefix/suffix is irrelevant to the number sequence, we have identified that 70051C (later registered CD4246 at Brighton on 1.1.18) was attributed to a Saurer. And the sequence now extends to nearly the 100000 point!

The # is 110678795918. Here's the link: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Austin-K2-x-2-Wagons-/110678795918?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item19c4f8668e

From the HCVS press release: http://www.hcvs.co.uk/page1-events_results/page1-events_results.htm The run starts from Crystal Palace Park, Anerley Hill, SE19 between 7:00am and 9:00am and the vehicles can be seen as they progress along the route, which passes through Streatham Common and follows the A23 through Purley, Redhill, Crawley (half-way halt at Broadfield Stadium off the Crawley by-pass). There is a diversion from the A23 at Pease Pottage via Handcross Village, Watermans Green, Staplefield, Cuckfield, Ansty, Burgess Hill to Pyecombe, where the route rejoins the A23. Have a great day out in Brighton seeing the vehicles arrive and on display along Madeira Drive from 10:30am with the Concours d’Elegance Awards Presentation at 4:00pm.

That must be one of the best unrestored gun tractors left. Well done in finding it. It looks like there's a big hole where the fuel tank filler should be. If you're missing some tanks, there's some on ebay at the moment (though not sure if they are for the 'beetle-back' body or the No.5 body). Best wishes. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Military-Morris-Commercial-Quad-Gun-Tractor-Fuel-Tanks-/140529742556?pt=UK_Cars_Parts_Vehicles_Other_Vehicle_Parts_Accessories_ET&hash=item20b839b2dc

More here: http://topwar.ru/3725-vystavka-motory-vojny-redkie-neizvestnye-znamenitye.html

I'd not heard of the Lehn Collection Automobiles before, but the curator would seem to have a catholic taste in MVs and fine automobiles. I only hope the al fresco exhibition is a temporary measure. http://www.lehn.ru/military.phtml

Fordson WOT2? http://www.wheelsofvictory.com/Wheels%20of%20victory/Brittish%20vehicles/Fordson/fordson%20wot%202%20.%20gs%20body%20rechts.jpg

This one? http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?21411-ww1-truck-restoration

It's not a Model T - they have a very distinctive reverse dished steering wheel. Very different to the one shown.

I can't help with the car without a picture showing far more of it; or your other questions come to that. However, you may be interested to know that the requirement to hold a driving licence was introduced in 1903 - but you didn't need to pass a test! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Car_Act_1903

This may help http://nuke.gmtmodellismo.it/ILIBRI/MEZZIECARRISTORIAEMODELLISMO/LEMACCHINEDIPAVESI/tabid/109/Default.aspx ...and one at Sinsheim: http://miles.forumcommunity.net/?t=35409851&st=15

From the web: The leading local iron works was Jas. Bartle and Co Western Iron Works located at 236A Lancaster Road. In 1981 the works were commemorated in the naming of Bartle Road when the area around Rillington Place was redeveloped. The wall of Bartle’s works abutted John Christie’s house at 10 Rillington Place and members of the Bartle family lived at number 3. James Bartle was born in Camborne, Cornwall in 1826 and the 1851 census shows him working in Islington. In 1854 he founded the iron foundry in Lancaster Road, which made coachwork and iron castings including manhole covers. By 1881 he was employing 62 men and 13 boys. Bartle was a leading figure in the community and was made a Freeman by Kensington Vestry. He died aged 70 at Camborne House, 236 Ladbroke Road in 1896 and the business was sold in 1910 to C S Windsor. The new owner not only continued to produce cast iron products but also developed and manufactured the Windsor Light car, which was launched at the 1923 Motor Show. Following Windsor’s death, Bartle’s was forced into liquidation in 1927. And looks like the works had a fine chimney: http://www.10-rillington-place.co.uk/html/period.html http://www.historytalk.org/Notting%20Hill%20History%20Timeline/timelinechap6.pdf

A good turn out there. Good see the K2/Ys. But no Morris CDSW or quad this year, unlike 2009 :-( :

Oh they were found ages ago... many years work still left both at BL and other archives...

Tim, to get exact measurements just walk to the front of your truck with a tape measure! Of course in days of yore James Bartle & Co would have been pleased to supply you over the counter:

Richard / Roy I've been having another look at the exhibition photograph - in particular the background. I don't think two three-tonners are being exhibited. The one at the back looks to be a short wheel base lorry with disk wheels - almost certainly a 30cwt type. And it would make sense for Daimler to be exhibiting as many different types as possible, rather than two Y types. But perhaps of more interest is the vehicle on the right. This looks to be Daimler's 40 h.p. agricultural tractor (I attach a picture of one below). A note I have of this type says that it was demonstrated at Lincoln circa August 1914. I've not made the link before, but perhaps here is another connection between Daimler and Fosters? And without War Department interference? Certainly worthy of further investigation...

Tim, good to see you're awake and spotted the deliberate mistake! :red: The file is WO 32/5040: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=6&CATID=3252936&SearchInit=4&SearchType=6&CATREF=wo+32%2F5040

The 1912 subsidy scheme technical specification says, at part 32: Towing hooks: Four towing hooks of standard pattern to be fitted, two in front and two in rear, vide drawings Nos. 105 and 106. Those at back to be fixed to frame with two 5/8in. rivets or bolts. Those in front to swivel in the dumb irons, and to be fitted with standard bolt and with no. 2 Rotherham lubricator. If necessary, frame to be strengthened at rear end to prevent any damage being done to it should towing hooks be used even at an angle of 15 degrees from the longitudinal axis of the vehicle. In case anyone is really interested, file WO 32/3040 at the National Archive has a copy of the drawing!

OK, here are the extracts I was thinking of, which give an overview as to the situation (all from Motor Traction)- Review of the year (30th December 1914): ...motor transport development, and the industry dependent upon it – in common with others – underwent a tremendous upheaval at the beginning of August, 1914, when the great war broke out. For a few days, it must be admitted, there were signs of a lack of coolness in many quarters. Plenty of people were running about urging upon other people that they should “continue their business as usual” who would have been better occupied in continuing their own. Anxiety was, of course, inevitable, and, on the whole, the country certainly passed through the first phase of the crisis with credit. As soon as it became possible to gauge immediate results, it was evident that manufacturers of industrial motors were in for a very busy time, and that many users of these machines were involved in difficulties, the duration of which could not be anticipated. Huge numbers of machines were requisitioned. In some cases they could be, and were, replaced by others unsuitable for military use, either on account of their age and inferior condition, or else on account of their light load capacity. In those instances in which really sound three-tonners were the only suitable type, considerable hardship was, and continues to be, felt. The bulk of our manufacturers are still tied down to deliver fixed consignments of vehicles at regular intervals for the War Department. The numbers allocated to each were arrived at as a result of careful inspection of works and books, and generally represent very closely the total output of the factory. How long this state of affairs will continue we cannot say... Letter (31st March 1915): Sir - You are, of course, aware of the condition of things in the heavy vehicle trade. We understand within the last few days the Government have given order to the various manufacturers to the effect that they must stop all deliveries and concentrate their energies on vehicles required by the War Department... Editorial “Releasing British Commercial Vehicles” (8th September 1915): We are glad to be in a position to state that the War Office has intimated to the principal manufacturers of commercial vehicles in this country that it is prepared to release a limited proportion of the output of such factories to permit of deliveries to purchasers. The conditions attaching to this permission appear to be that the purchaser must provide evidence that such vehicles are required in connection with War Office contracts for the supply of munitions, food stuffs, and other necessities... It was becoming increasingly obvious that large and, indeed, small contractors to the Government were finding it difficult, and in some cases, we are informed, impossible, to deliver the goods under contract on the dates specified. The cause was the limited transport facilities now afforded by the railway companies, and the inability of contractors themselves to procure suitable motor vehicles for the conveyance either of raw materials or of finished goods. As a matter of fact, quite a number of North Country firms have for many months been delivering a large portion of their army goods by road motor to London and other military centres, but these, it may be said, were the fortunate few who had acquired such vehicles as were available and suitable for the purpose. That such a state of affairs could not go on in the national interest was apparent, so that the present arrangement seems likely to result in more satisfactory deliveries of War Department goods than has been the case up to the present. This feature of the case may indeed have had more to do with the step taken than any other aspect of the situation. Rumours of an impending change have been in circulation for some time, and it was hoped that the release of British-built vehicles would have been on a larger scale, that other firms than those directly engaged in Government contracts or sub-contracts would have been able to participate in the available supply of new machines. Those, therefore, who do not come under the official heading will, we are afraid, be disappointed... The existance of "rumours" suggests to me that that the key players had been involved in behind-the-scenes lobbying and other activity to help free-up supply to the domestic market - after all the 'American invasion' of motor lorries had started, taking trade from British manufacturers; and there were fears that Government contracts could cease at the stroke of a pen leaving the British industry high-and-dry. Remember politics and commerce don't stop just because there's a war on! I assume, therefore, that whilst Daimler were committed to Government contracts at the time of the RASE exhibition, they put lorries on their stand, as much as anything else, in anticipation of a resumption of some semblance of normal trade - keeping their product in front of potential customers.

It's quite clear from comtemporary accounts that requistioning heavy vehicles for military use affected the home industry's ability to supply the war effort. So some vehicle production had to be released to the market, rather than the forces. I'll dig out some extracts and post them later.

The WW1 ambulance with the pointed nose and radiator by the bulkhead is a Siddeley-Deasy. Nice picture that. The one above shows an LCC (London County Council) ambulance on a converted american car chassis - I don't know what (yet). These were produced on almost anything during WW2.

The China Clay Museum is otherwise known as the Wheal Martyn Museum. Apparently volunteers can help, "restore and operate the 1910 (sic) Peerless lorry". Quite an incentive! http://www.wheal-martyn.com/vol.html

The cards are held by the Royal Logistic Corps Museum. Details here: http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?18192 Classic Military Vehicle magazine has a write up on these cards in the March & April 2011 editions - enquires are now said to be £25 payable to the RLC Museum Trust Fund.