question Captured Pre 1940 25Pdrs. ??

[Ian L]

Amazing !! when you add to that lorries, cars, tanks, transporters, stores etc the numbers must be mind boggling what we left behind.

[REME 245]

My original question was how could you tell from the posted photograghs if the guns were 18 Pounders or 18/25 Pounders.

 

As Rob has confirmed no all 18 Pounders MK IV Guns were converted to 18/25 Pounders so presumably the only way to tell 100% from a picture would either be to see the ammunition or if they used a different sight.

 

Not trying to be argumentive, just enquiring if there is an easy way of identrify the two guns from a photogragh.

[george]

Somehow, correct me if I am wrong, the thread seems to be taking a different direction.

 

Although there were MkIV 18pdrs, MkIV 18 pdr conversions to take the 25pdr round, and 18pdr MkII guns in service, do we agree that the BEF had ;

18pdrs MkII with pole trail and Martin Parry conversion to pneumatic tyres.

18/25pdr box trail and split trail, converted from the 18pdr MkIV.

 

Are you saying that there were also 18pdr MkIV in France as well.

 

I have a number of photos of abandoned guns of the BEF, also some of the limbers associated with the 18 pdr, which I think was the No 29, or so the official caption says.

 

This limber is the same configuration as the WWI, with the exception of the Martin Parry conversion.

 

According to the drawings on Len Trawins book on artillery, there were limbers and ammunition carriers, different layouts, but the limbers associated with the 18pdr seem to be the No29. There is of course the exception in IWM photo F 3973, of Gort reviewing the gun.

 

 

I enclose one photo of gun and limber plus the official photo of the limber from the handbook.

 

 

Could there have been different issues of equipent re regular units and TA to account for these anomolies.

 

 

George.

 

 

 

[rnixartillery]

My original question was how could you tell from the posted photograghs if the guns were 18 Pounders or 18/25 Pounders.

 

As Rob has confirmed no all 18 Pounders MK IV Guns were converted to 18/25 Pounders so presumably the only way to tell 100% from a picture would either be to see the ammunition or if they used a different sight.

 

Not trying to be argumentive, just enquiring if there is an easy way of identrify the two guns from a photogragh.

 

There are no indications between the original 18 pdr MKIV P and its later conversion 18/25 PDR in the photo anyway,only the time and the place the picture was taken which makes a Big difference.

Before I answered Lex with the type of gun I should have asked about the location,it was an after thought about it being Dunkirk.

An 18 pdr projectile has an 83mm Diameter as to the 25 pdr round being 87mm (3.45") so not much difference there !

 

George is quite right the limber used with the 18 pdr was the No 29 which was upgraded for mechanised transport,I do have one of these in my collection.

 

Rob........................rnixartillery.

[george]

Amazing, would there be any chance of seeing some photos of your Limber, I made one to accompany the model kit of the 18pdr for Resicast, based on Trawins drawings, but I'd love to get some more details especially the fittings and underneath brake linkages etc.

There appears to be a metal plate on the towing bar, difficult to make out on the photo's, was this a form of guard or rubbing plate for when the limber was at maximum turn, to avoid fouling ???

 

If you have any pre-restoration photo's I would love to see them.

 

george.dfs1@virginmedia.com

 

These show the early mock ups, with dummy wheels, some details missing. There is a 4.5" Howitzer to accompant it too.

 

Thanks.

 

George.

 

 

[george]

A big thank you for sending me the photographs of your Limber, much appreciated.

 

All you 1:1 collectors and restorers are a mine of information, and its only right to acknowlegde the help you are able to offer us "toy makers".

 

 

Thanks again.

 

George.

[rnixartillery]

A big thank you for sending me the photographs of your Limber, much appreciated.

 

All you 1:1 collectors and restorers are a mine of information, and its only right to acknowlegde the help you are able to offer us "toy makers".

 

 

Thanks again.

 

George.

 

 

Your Welcome George,If you are ever up in Gods country let me know and you are very welcome to inspect it at close quarters !

 

Rob....................rnixartillery.

[rnixartillery]

and a few more....................................

 

Rob.......................rnixartillery.

[Niallmhor]

Good evening gents,

Ref the comments on the 18/25 Pdr field guns , it was a 18 pdr barrel fitted with a loose Liner or called autofrettage to take the 25 pdr round .Now if you where to visit Heugh Gun Battery at Hartlepool , you will find a 18/25 pdr on a mk VP carriage ( A rare old lady). I noticed that a photo had a 18/25 pdr with split trails hooked up to a No.27 limber & a turntable on the top of it, this would be of no use as due to the split trails. You would need two two covers for each spade for it to work with the turntable.

thanks for your time

 

Niallmhor

[Bob Grundy]

George

In your Post 24, lower photo showing guns that have been there a while, note the grass quite high, do you know where is the location ?

[george]

Good evening gents,

Ref the comments on the 18/25 Pdr field guns , it was a 18 pdr barrel fitted with a loose Liner or called autofrettage to take the 25 pdr round .Now if you where to visit Heugh Gun Battery at Hartlepool , you will find a 18/25 pdr on a mk VP carriage ( A rare old lady). I noticed that a photo had a 18/25 pdr with split trails hooked up to a No.27 limber & a turntable on the top of it, this would be of no use as due to the split trails. You would need two two covers for each spade for it to work with the turntable.

thanks for your time

 

Niallmhor

 

Hi, any chance of some walk-round photo's ????? I was aware of one that was in Eire, also another in Australia. I have information from Woolwich, a small layout and lubrication diagram, but would be interested in the underside "sub frame" as this looks similar (on the drawings) to the box trail version. There also seems to be q variation in the axletree hangers, the Oz one is a square profile.

 

I live in Plymouth, currently recovering from a quadruple by-pass, so travel is out of the question at the moment.

 

George

[george]

George

In your Post 24, lower photo showing guns that have been there a while, note the grass quite high, do you know where is the location ?

 

Sorry, no, they were from a collection of a friend of mine, I will try and find out, but it may take a while.

 

I understand there were numerous collection points scattered around, according WW2 Talk, there was one just outside Dunkirk, where a number of vehicles were dumped by retreating troops......this however would appear to be a collection point, in a field, despite the grass "being as high as the gun layers eye" (sorry about that), it could have been some while after the retreat as it seems only artillery pieces have been collected.

 

I have other photo's of carriers only and softskins only, so perhaps they were stock-taking areas. it would seem tht with Teutonic efficiency, equipment was divided into type and category.....so it is feasible that this was some time after the event.

 

George.

 

 

[rnixartillery]

Just found these pics of the 18 pdr MK IV at Firepower !

 

Rob........................rnixartillery.

[watcher]

Good evening gents,

Ref the comments on the 18/25 Pdr field guns , it was a 18 pdr barrel fitted with a loose Liner or called autofrettage to take the 25 pdr round .Now if you where to visit Heugh Gun Battery at Hartlepool , you will find a 18/25 pdr on a mk VP carriage ( A rare old lady). I noticed that a photo had a 18/25 pdr with split trails hooked up to a No.27 limber & a turntable on the top of it, this would be of no use as due to the split trails. You would need two two covers for each spade for it to work with the turntable.

thanks for your time

 

 

Autofrettage is a barrel contruction technique to strengthen the metal and reduce barrel weight by using less metal.

 

I think you'll find that in 25-pr Mk 1 the 18-pr A tube (with wire binding pre-Mk 4B) was removed from the jacket and a 25-pr 'barrel' inserted in the jacket. This is not 'lining down'. Lining down means machining the barrel bore to enlarge it then inserting a new lining tube. It was a technique mostly used to rejuvenate worn barrels, particularly those of a built-up construction where the A tube couldn't be easily removed (if at all).

 

This 25-pr relining nonsense seems to have originated by people not understanding barrel construction and or trying to simplify a description. A more precise desciption might be 'the 18-pr ordnance was re-lined', (where 'liner' is synonymous with 'tube' and 'barrel') of course this is confusing if you don't know that the jacket is just an outer cover and changing a tube/liner when worn means taking it out of the jacket and putting in a new one.

 

Of course part of the problem is the ambiguous term 'ordnance', in the US it invariably refers to munitions, but in UK (ignoring any un-natural RAF or RN practices) it means one of the two major assemblies comprising a gun or mortar, the other being the carriage or mounting, ie the ordnance is the breach assembly, muzzlebrake and everything in between.

[rnixartillery]

The 18 pdr and 25 pdr Mk1 are different Ordnance construction completely.

 

18 pdr was made up from Breech ring,Wire, jacket and A-tube.

 

25pdr Mk1 was made up from Breech Ring,Loose liner Securing screw,loose liner ,Jacket ,Muzzle Bush and Muzzle bush securing screw.

 

Definition of Loose liner is when the liner is completely protected by the Jacket,A Loose barrel projects (exposes) at the front through the Jacket.

 

In the case of the 25 pdr Mk1 it has a liner rather than a barrel/tube.

 

Rob..................rnixartillery.

[watcher]

The 18 pdr and 25 pdr Mk1 are different Ordnance construction completely.

 

18 pdr was made up from Breech ring,Wire, jacket and A-tube.

 

25pdr Mk1 was made up from Breech Ring,Loose liner Securing screw,loose liner ,Jacket ,Muzzle Bush and Muzzle bush securing screw.

 

Definition of Loose liner is when the liner is completely protected by the Jacket,A Loose barrel projects (exposes) at the front through the Jacket.

 

In the case of the 25 pdr Mk1 it has a liner rather than a barrel/tube.

 

Rob..................rnixartillery.

 

Not entirely correct, 18-pr Mk 4B was not wirebound, just a liner in the jacket.

[rnixartillery]

Yes you are quite correct the Mk IVA and Mk IVB were not wire bound, this was an important development stage in design.

Although the wire bound method had been standard practice for many years some might argue that there was loss in Longitudinal strength in the Ordnance.

 

Rob......................rnixartillery.

Edited December 27, 2012 by rnixartillery