mikeysoft Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 Hi I'm Mike, I work at BAE Systems Warton site in Lancashire developing avionics software for the Eurofighter Typhoon. For the last few years there has been a rusty T-34 sat on the south side of the airfield. This disappeared last year. So I did some digging on Google and found it had been up for auction with Peaker Pattinson (Auctioneers) Ltd in October 2009. I was always curious about this tank, where did it come from, what was it used for (it never moved in the last 5 years), etc. Does anyone know ANYTHING about this tank? What variant of T-34 & it's era (I know nothing of T-34s), it's history, who's bought it / what's become of it, etc.? The photo of it on the Peaker Pattinson auction brochure (PDF) is quite low quality, but would still probably be of use to a T-34 expert (ignore the main page photo, bigger photo further into the brochure): http://www.ppbid.com/online/579Flysheet.pdf MANY THANKS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willyslancs Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 hi mike from the fylde .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeysoft Posted February 6, 2010 Author Share Posted February 6, 2010 Hi Willyslancs that was a rapid respond! As a local to Warton, do you know anything about this (now departed) T-34?! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willyslancs Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 no not heard anything about it mate (i worked at the land registry nursery till recently) will ask about tho......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 It's a Russian ( ie not post war czech) T34/85 of 1944 vintage probably zavod (factory) 183 no idea on anything else but no doubt it will turn up eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 (edited) For the last few years there has been a rusty T-34 sat on the south side of the airfield. This disappeared last year. So I did some digging on Google and found it had been up for auction with Peaker Pattinson (Auctioneers) Ltd in October 2009. Sounds like this one: http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?15322-T34-anyone Sold for 21k at auction October last year. Edited February 7, 2010 by mcspool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMgeneral Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 Hi I'm Mike, I work at BAE Systems Warton site in Lancashire developing avionics software for the Eurofighter Typhoon. For the last few years there has been a rusty T-34 sat on the south side of the airfield. This disappeared last year. So I did some digging on Google and found it had been up for auction with Peaker Pattinson (Auctioneers) Ltd in October 2009. I was always curious about this tank, where did it come from, what was it used for (it never moved in the last 5 years), etc. Does anyone know ANYTHING about this tank? What variant of T-34 & it's era (I know nothing of T-34s), it's history, who's bought it / what's become of it, etc.? The photo of it on the Peaker Pattinson auction brochure (PDF) is quite low quality, but would still probably be of use to a T-34 expert (ignore the main page photo, bigger photo further into the brochure): http://www.ppbid.com/online/579Flysheet.pdf MANY THANKS Hi I went to veiw this tank with Bob Grundy,from British Military Vehicles,Ashton in Makerfield,a good few years ago now,we were asked to get it running,which we did and drove it round a short distance.They were unsure what was happening to it ! Bob may know the whereabouts ? Regards AMgeneral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusting already Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 It's a Russian ( ie not post war czech) T34/85 of 1944 vintage probably zavod (factory) 183 no idea on anything else but no doubt it will turn up eventually. Hi, Just wondering if you could lay out the identifying features that put this vehicle into the 1944 bracket. Thanks Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willyslancs Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 been told today bae bought it well over 20 years ago (i believe they wanted it to maybe experiment with something to do with ballistics) just waiting to ask someone who was there many years ago and might know for sure . will let you know when i do ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 been told today bae bought it well over 20 years ago (i believe they wanted it to maybe experiment with something to do with ballistics) just waiting to ask someone who was there many years ago and might know for sure . will let you know when i do ..... That might may have been around the same time that Budge brought in a load of T34 tanks, from Poland I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladder Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 hi guys it is a t-34/85 early 1944, all the controls labels are in polish. we have it in london at present and will set about repainting it hopefuly this summer. It runs very well with just a little oil from the left engine bank. It is mainly complete with only one seat missing and one of the drivers periscope is damaged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John H Dale Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 Hi Doesnt look Russian to me I agree photo is poor but you can clearly see the sharper front glacis plate,different from Russian ones,as the post war ones were welded together without a solid bar at the point.Also it looks to me as if there is a large tube on the left hand side.This is likely to be fording eqipment and as the Polish developed the T34 for fording more than the other Soviet nations, I would place a bet on it being Polish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 rusting already Hi, Just wondering if you could lay out the identifying features that put this vehicle into the 1944 bracket. Hi Alex this is my take on aging a T34. The T34/85 can be differentiated by approximate year of manufacture and by the differences of the factory producing the tank. Like any other high volume manufactured vehicle there are variations including in field rebuilds and turret swaps and post war remanufacture. To differentiate by year of manufacture Russian T34/85 production can be divided into four years of manufacture but these are nominal as they cover dates from very late 1943 to mid 1945. 1943 The first model T34 1943 model produced in early in January 1944 (some say last week of December 1943) as an interim tank. It has the following features D5 T gun (as fitted to SU85). Fat wasted turret casting Vision slits and pistol ports on each side of the turret, Cupola, loaders hatch and the twin ventilator further forward than the standard production T34/85s at the widest part of the turret. Cupola had two door split hatch with periscope in hatch. Roof plate long type, abuts mantlet bolt on cover. 77° turret rear. Turret lifting lugs were four inverted U shaped loops, welded to the upper turret sides Sighting periscope was a PTK 5 (looking like an up turned parsnip). Hull rear hatches were heavy weight and the radio aerial was fitted to the hull as in the T34/76 as the radio was operated by the hull gunner. This type was only produced for a few months until about end of March 1944 some of this production had a revised roof form with cupola and other components further back as would be standard in the standard 1944 tank. There are also a small number which combine turrets from the standard 1944 nr.112 production with D5 T guns. This type description is for reporting purposes only if any of these three types exist they will be only in museums or the bottom of Ukrainian and Baltic lakes. If you did come across one head straight to the bank and pray the dealer doesn’t know what it is. 1944 The main production T34/85 started at Nr.112 in late March/ April 1944 and almost at the same time at two other plants. The three plants produce different style of turret casting just to complicate matters. However features are relevant to all standard production 1944 T34/85s. Most features as model 1943 with the following differences ZIS S 53 gun Vision slit above left pistol port eliminated. Roof components set back from mid line. Mk4 sighting periscope. Radio in turret with mast on turret. Four horned type lifting lugs. This type continued until end of 1944 1945 production type Production started late in 1944 and as three plants were involved there would be overlaps as older components were used up. Main differences;- One piece cupola hatch with periscope fixed in a fixed portion of the cupola roof The ventilator are single domes of greater height and are fixed one at the rear and one forward of the crew hatches ,above the gun breach, both on centre line. 1946 production type. Often called Post War production style there is evidence of its use in April 1945 and in Manchuria. Only apparent difference from previous model is;- Elimination of vision slit on right side of turret. which probably first appeared on Nr 112 Gorky tanks All production models had detail differences in the hull particularly around the rear plate hinges and joint and are noted in manufacturer differences. As previously mentioned and to complicate matters further. Gorky Factory No. 112 aka the Krasnoye Sormovo Zavod nr. 112 were joined in production of T34/85 by Factory No.174 in Omsk and Factory No.183 in Nizhni Tagil also named the I.V. Stalin, Ural Tank Works. The three factories turret castings differed markedly and this has to be added to the three ZIS S 53 gun production periods outlined above. Nr 112 (Gorky) had two types of casting, a hard edge and a soft edge turret, the hard edge had a sharp edge lower edge stretching rearward from the mid point of the turret waste around the bustle whereas the soft style is rounded Nr112 castings retain the fat style turret waste and the turret rear in angled at 77°. Nr. 174 turret casting are often referred to as angle joint turrets as they have a distinct casting mark set at angle on the mantlet cheek which continues from the casting and is the main differentiation from Gorky soft edge casting. Although angle joints turrets have flattened sides at the widest part of the casting it is less apparent than in Nr183 turrets. The rear of the turret is near vertical at 83-5° Nr. 183 is the most diverse of the wartime castings, sometimes referred to as the Flattened side casting. It has a flattened style waste (more apparent than in Nr174 turrets) and near vertical rear as in the Nr. 174 types. The Nr. 183 has a horizontal casting line and many also have vertical marks on the turret ring section which appear to be caused by wear on the moulding tools on some castings. Where the Nr.183 differs most is in the roof plate configuration Nr112 and Nr.174 turrets have similar roof plate characteristics, in these types the plate is welded into the roof and extends to the edge of the bolted on mantlet access plate. In Nr 183 there is an integral cast section across the front of the turret roof and the mantlet access is bolted to it, the welded in turret roof is separated from the mantlet access plate by a cast section about 100mm wide. The Nr 183 mantlet is also narrower than those of other manufacturers 790 against 730mm. The rear of the turret is near vertical at 83-5° To complicate matters there are wartime production types that are from unknown factories or sub contracting foundries for example there is a T34/85 casting similar to the so called laminate hexagonal 76mm turret, it has distinct multi faceted moulding marks on the turret. Further, there is a degree of creep in manufacture notably with Nr174 which vary somewhat in the shape of the waste of the turret and some Nr183 which show signs of mould distress. Hulls. There are two types of rear hull access panel hinges Nr 112 and Nr174 use large hinges but differ in the position of lower plate edge, whereas Nr183 have very small hinges and have the same lower plate edge as Nr112 hulls. There is some variation in front hull to lower glacis plate welding but it does not seem to be year or manufacturer specific. Post war things get worse, in addition to re-manufacture both Poland and Czechoslovakia manufactured their own T34 with a distinct turret casting, possibly sharing production as both countries turrets seem similar. This turret has a very fine casting with a distinct dip in the casting mark on the waste of the turret, which is not flattened but has a distinct bulge on the left side which covers the area where the traverse control is located, this gives the impression that the casting moulds differ from standard Soviet castings in that there is an attempt to reduce the weight of the turret without compromising armour thickness. Both Czech and Polish produce tanks have all the other features of standard Gorky T34/85 as regard ventilators and vision slits. Wheels, Wartime manufacture solid and the so called spider wheel with ribs and 12 large and 6 small holes. Post war 1960s rebuild tanks have T54 style Starfish wheels with ten spokes imprinted into a solid disk (with ten holes). Hope that helps with T34/85 ID, anyone who wants to correct any errors please feel free to jump in, I sure there are errors, variations and lots of other T34 details to explore. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 (edited) John H Dale Doesnt look Russian to me ........ I would place a bet on it being Polish fair comment There is a reasonable photo on MCSpool's post dated 6-2-2010 which shows it to have an angle joint turret of Nr.174 type and not an Nr 183 as I previously posted- the original photo as you said was very poor. While you may be correct that the hull looks too sharp for WW2 Soviet production, I have already said that turret swaps have to be taken into account when trying to date T34s. As to Polish manufactured vehicles having improved wading equipment, that was also fitted to stocks of ex Soviet WW2 tanks in Polish service. The turret has the remenant of a szachownica on it and the owner has already said that it is ex Polish service- it would be fairly pointless to mark controls in Polish if it was ex Bulgarian! The turret of a post war manufactured Polish tank has a very finely finished casting similar to the Czech type with a prominant bulge on the left turret side as I described in my previous post. Therefore IMO the turret is not in keeping with a post war manufacture hull and to be certain that the hull is post war i.e. has a glacis to lower hull weld without a fillet I would need a better photo. Steve Edited February 8, 2010 by steveo578 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy8men Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 hi steve i'm not sure about some of that could you just run thru it all again eddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 Hi Eddy In brief I think the Russians used play-doe during their manufacture:-D Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladder Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Hi Guys, Here's some photos for you to look at... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusting already Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Wow, thanks for the considerable info on identification, its good to have a decent reference point to start from. Also nice to see the pictures, they are such similar but varying beasts, my 53 T-34 has solid wheels, maybe reworked wartime possibly.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Cladder Thanks for posting detail photos, very helpful and shows how difficult it is to make identification, in my post #14 I said your tank was Nr. 174 rather than Nr.183 as I first thought, I am now think my first guess was correct, it is Nr183, - the turret has the cast section between roof plate and the bolt on mantlet access plate- if this is correct the mantlet should be the narrow type at 730mm wide. The tank also has Nr183 type hinges on the rear. Odd thing is it has a later model 1945 single piece hatch cupola, but that could be a retro-fit. If, as John thinks that this tank was made in Poland rather than at Nr.183 in the Urals then perhaps the components used or tooling in Poland/Czechoslovakia were shipped from the Ural plant. -shades of M4A1 Grizzly production at Montreal Canada. If anyone has detail photos of either Polish or Czech Post war manufactured tanks for comparison it might be of value to tank enthusiasts. steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 (edited) rusting already my 53 T-34 has solid wheels, maybe reworked wartime possibly.... Regarding wheels, when I mentioned "wartime manufacture solid and Spider wheels" that was a "shorthand" no doubt the same design was manufactured post War and would have been held for replacements. What I should have said is that solid or Spider wheels are consistant with a tank of wartime manufacture. If the tank was used for film work the solid or spider wheels are correct for WW2 or Hungarian uprising etc, the T54 style wheels are consistant for film work such as 1967 Mid East wars Vietnam etc, but earlier wheels would be correct. Steve Edited February 9, 2010 by steveo578 addition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted February 9, 2010 Share Posted February 9, 2010 I 've looked at web photos of polish/czech manufactured T34/85s the hinges on the rear of these are similar to Zavod Nr.183 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeysoft Posted February 13, 2010 Author Share Posted February 13, 2010 MANY thanks to all those who answered my question! Especially Willyslancs, steveo578, mcspool, and of course the new owner cladder! I drove past that T34 at work (BAE Warton) many times over the years and often wondered about it, and was sad to see it had vanished one day! I did wonder if it was used in Eurofighter RADAR trials as a sample tank for ground attack, as Warton at the RADAR development/trials site for Eurofighter (out of the four partner nations). 1) I was lucky to find this forum and it be the right forum to get the right answers! 2) I was lucky that the thread got some good replies and I got to find out it's likely origin 3) I was lucky to see detailed pics of it from it's new owner, and find out that it does in fact run! (something I used to wonder about) cladder - is there any possibility of having a high res photo of this tank from front 3/4 angle, including the full gun? Bit like the attached one (a high res version of that one would do if you have it) - so I can set it as my high res wallpaper? I'd really appreciate it. What are your plans for this tank? Is it in your own personal collection or is it part of an organisation's collection? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferretfixer Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 In line with, but NOT appertaining to this particular Tank. There used to be a very tidy looking T34/85 outside a garage in Cranbrook, Kent. on the main drag to Maidstone. It was placed so it looked like it had just burst through a large tree line behind it. Very nicely turned out paint wise! I havent driven accross that part of the wold for over 9 years now. Does anybody know if it's still there? I also noticed a few ex Army trucks behind the tree line as I drove by. Im sure somone from our membership knows the owner/s? :undecided: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cladder Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 Hi mikeysoft, I will take pic for you as soon as the weather improves down in london. It is part of my collection and i will refurb it hopefully this summer, just got to finish the scimitar we are working on. cladder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awsmith1965 Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Hi, I used to operate this tank and transferred it from BAe Samlesbury to BAe Warton in early 2000. Just wondering how its doing and what it looks like after its new paint scheme. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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