Any information available about M4A4 Sherman no T-21253x please?

Hello,

I'm trying to explain why a former British M4A4 ended up on a beach in Southern France and was disabled on 15 August 1944 (the date of the landing in Southern France). Was it borrowed for the operation by the US Army? Is there any evidence that it served as a dozer in the British army before the transfer in the US Army? thanks.

The bottom hull of that tank was recovered from the beach of Sainte Maxime city in December 2011. The tank recovered is an M4A4 but there is no evidence of a dozer blade.

P-O

Tsk! ... all I've ever managed to dig up off a beach is an empty Coke can or a plastic bottle!:cool2:

lol, that's the same for me.. except one day when I found a partial MG42 ammunition belt just off Utah Beach...

P-O

wonder what happened to her???maybe the scrapman back many years ago fer some reason or other couldn't drag the main part of the hull out of the sand ???.....looking at the state of her I'm guessing the turret and a lot of the upper hull was lamped off cos it was easy to get at....and the rest left for the sea to dispose of?

I have cross posted to the G104 mailing list, will let you know if something comes up there.

Old thread on this subject: http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?28226-Storms-uncovers-a-Sherman-buried-on-the-beach&highlight=Sainte+Maxime

Maybe I'll go there and visit next month. P-O, do you have any local contacts?

Old thread on this subject: http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?28226-Storms-uncovers-a-Sherman-buried-on-the-beach&highlight=Sainte+Maxime

 

Maybe I'll go there and visit next month. P-O, do you have any local contacts?

well, I'll try to get some fresh information. When I was in Sainte-Maxime in March, the tank was unfortunately in a private collection in order to be cleaned and to get a protection against salt corrosion and decay, so I was not able to see it. I don't know if the tank is back to Sainte Maxime, however I doubt that it is easily accessible now.

P-O

well, I'll try to get some fresh information. When I was in Sainte-Maxime in March, the tank was unfortunately in a private collection in order to be cleaned and to get a protection against salt corrosion and decay, so I was not able to see it. I don't know if the tank is back to Sainte Maxime, however I doubt that it is easily accessible now.

Pierre-Olivier,

I would be great if you could find a local contact so I could have access to it. I think it is crucial to search for clues if indeed it was once fitted with a dozer blade or not. The US did borrow some specialised armour from the British, an M4A4 Dozer would fit the bill but a regular gun tank would not. By stating this chances are that someone will now prove the US did use M4A4 gun tanks, of course...

Hanno

The standard M4 Dozer blade does not fit on an M4A4, because of the longer hull .They would first fit it to the other models before making adapters for the M4A4.

Old thread on this subject: http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?28226-Storms-uncovers-a-Sherman-buried-on-the-beach&highlight=Sainte+Maxime

Picture from http://www.varmatin.com/article/saint-tropez/jean-daniel-de-germond-a-sainte-maxime-a-17-ans-jai-pose-sur-ce-tank.698103.html in the hand of the gentleman shows the same grab rail along the turret as "Night Hawk" has in P-O's photo.

I have cross posted to the G104 mailing list, will let you know if something comes up there.

See the attached for another period picture of a M4A4 Dozer named "Defiance", most likely on the same beach. I recall seeing this photo in the pre-internet days and wondering how it came in US use and where it was taken?!?

Leife Hubert noted: "Besides "Defiance", there is a photo on p51 of Steve's Concord US Funnies book which shows yet more Sherman V "mine clearer" dozers and a Churchill SBG in use by a US unit practicing for the Op Dragoon landings, so it's not the realms of fantasy that US units would be using ex-BritComm vehicles during these landings."

Leife also notes La Nartelle beach is one of the "Delta" beaches that the 45th ID landed on during Dragoon. Both Defiance and Night-Hawk have the same shipping code 82019-Y on them.

HTH,

Hanno

Pierre-Olivier,

 

I would be great if you could find a local contact so I could have access to it. I think it is crucial to search for clues if indeed it was once fitted with a dozer blade or not. The US did borrow some specialised armour from the British, an M4A4 Dozer would fit the bill but a regular gun tank would not. By stating this chances are that someone will now prove the US did use M4A4 gun tanks, of course...

 

Hanno

well, that's not easy. I don't know the current status of the tank.. will try to know more in the following days..

P-O

Re. WD census no. T-21253x: I searched through Kevin T's British and Canadian Vehicles Names Lists, but could only find M4A4's in the T-2122... , T-2123... , T-2124... , T-2126... , T-2127.. ranges, but none in the T-2125... range :confused:.

well, that's not easy. I don't know the current status of the tank.. will try to know more in the following days..

That would be great! I have been to that beach before, never knowing a Sherman was lurking beneath the sand....

That would be great! I have been to that beach before, never knowing a Sherman was lurking beneath the sand....

Well, at least a half of one Hanno :-)

Well, at least a half of one Hanno :-)

You're right of course, should have written "Sherman, parts thereof"

I wonder what they are going to do with the remains, as there is hardly anything recognisable as tank left?

Maybe they should hire you, you will convince them by showing the pictures of what you started with....

That would be great! I have been to that beach before, never knowing a Sherman was lurking beneath the sand....

Ouch.....think about walking on the beach bare foot and tripping over a sharp piece of Sherman....

I think I have also seen a pic before of an M4A4 dozer on Omaha Beach; I will try to find it. And no....it was a period pic, not a pic of the M4A4T at the museum near Omaha.

Alex

Oops....it's the same pic...and it was not Omaha. According to some sources Hanno's pic was taken on Slapton sands?

The discussion about M4A4 in US service in NWE has also been discussed on missing-lynx before (yep...Hanno there as well).

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/thread/1092227736/Colour+pics+from+Slapton+Sands

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/message/1098125417/and+a+M4A4+in+US+use%2C+Normandy-

http://www.archivesnormandie39-45.org/specificPhoto.php?ref=p011468

Alex

Does anybody have any clues where the remains that were recovered are now?

I am currently in the vicinity and would like to get in touch with a local contact so I could have access to it. I think it is crucial to search for clues if indeed it was once fitted with a dozer blade or not.

Thanks!

Cross-posting to another thread on the same subject: http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?28226-Storms-uncovers-a-Sherman-buried-on-the-beach

Last news I saw was here, dated March of this year: http://www.varmatin.com/saint-tropez/sainte-maxime-quel-est-lemplacement-ideal-pour-le-char-sherman.1156583.html

Apperently some preservation work has been carried out, meanwhile the community is asked what would be the ideal location for this relic.

Some more up-to-date pictures of the Sherman remains being turned into a memorial:

http://www.ville-sainte-maxime.fr/le_char_sherman.html

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/102206466

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/102206543

The location of this tank was known for years... But it took it being uncovered after a storm for someone to decide to haul it out.

The scrap man recovered what he could and left the rest.

Now it sits on the edge of Delta Beach / Nartelle Plage next to the roundabout.

A pity someone couldnt graft an upper section back on to be a better memorial... What is there, whist original does not have a very big impact IMO... Though i suppose it is better than nothing.

Tim