important NEWS -Centaur CS IV tanks found in the channel

[Jack]

On the front page folks!

 

http://www.hmvf.co.uk or click on the HMVF logo

[AlienFTM]

Have I gone into a time warp or something or is this not yesterday's news? Literally, as there has been a thread running about it since then.

[diver99]

I know this is an old thread, but so is the info. I was talking to a marine salvage company and divers had known about these wrecks since at least the 1970's. Nobody interested then, but it got the latest group of divers excited, and use it for their project in NAS. (Nautical Archaeology Sociey). Get them up and have a uk version of the wreck museum at port en bessin, Normandy.

[Jack]

I know this is an old thread, but so is the info. I was talking to a marine salvage company and divers had known about these wrecks since at least the 1970's. Nobody interested then, but it got the latest group of divers excited, and use it for their project in NAS. (Nautical Archaeology Sociey). Get them up and have a uk version of the wreck museum at port en bessin, Normandy.

 

Now that would be exciting!

[diver99]

I hope i didn't portray that the group who are using the wrecks for their NAS qualifications would be interested in raising the wrecks. They won't. Knowing the NAS anything under the water now has a 'different meaning and it's importance is where it is now'.

 

Yes some archaeology does belong in its context, but to me not these wrecks. Vehicles from a capsized landing craft, the history is known. The Centaurs were almost written off at the time and kindly donated to the Marines. When the vehicles ran out of juice, they were to be abandoned. There aren't that many Centaur's around; dozer and AA Turret at Bovington, one at Pegasus Bridge. Don't know any others.

 

Also, they were to go to Fance towing Porpoises, (ammunition sleds), and I don't know of any at all. So a case for salvage and restoration on one of those would be important.

 

I would be interested in peoples opinions on this. Oh and I read Maritime Archaeology at Southampton Uni.

Edited November 9, 2010 by diver99
mong spelling mistake

[Adrian Barrell]

Several Centaurs survive including the Pegasus Bridge example which is a D Day participant.

[steveo578]

It certainly would be interesting to see a porpoise as it is a rather forgotten piece of amphibious warfare history- there were 2 types used on D.Day narrow and wide, but there use dates back to dieppe where "re-supply sledges" were used -or at least an attempt was made to use them on Churchills but most if not all were left in the LCT as they snagged and broke their cables.

 

As to the story that the tanks were on their last legs when supplied -true to an extent -the original plan was to supply rolling hulls without motors and these were to be lashed in LCTs to be used as support guns -similar to the towed 105mm guns used by the US Army- with the added advantage of full crew protection. -it was then decided to use them with motors in the hope that they could be used ashore releasing the LCts for other duties-(although the crews were Royal Marine Garrision Artillery they still tended toward the Marine ethos of adventure) so although tired the tanks were maintained -they were also a couple of Sherman Mk1 command and control tanks included in the battle plan -these also landed.

 

As to the "they were used 'til they ran out juice" -they were only to be used for the intital assault as the crews were not integrated into the RAC/RTR order of battle - probably ammunition resupply would have been more of a problem than fuel .

 

It would be interesting to see these vehicles on land where they belong -I can't see the harm assuming there was no loss of life -so they aren't classed as War Graves - although in the long term who will look after them? -things are finacially tight at the moment and likely to become worse.

 

Steve

[diver99]

Not war graves as the LC which was tansporting developed engine trouble and on it's way back. Then eventually capsized after crew taken off. So along with 2 centaurs, armoured dozer, porpoises and perhps a jeep. A gun has been mentioned, unsure if oerlikon from LC.

 

Oh yes the consevation would be a problem. Either similar aspect such as the port en bessin tanks and slapton wreck and covered in a 'conservation film.' Or stripped for parts?

[eddy8men]

i know of 3 centaurs requiring turrets for restoration, i own one of them.

 

eddy

[steveo578]

diver99

Not war graves as the LC which was tansporting developed engine trouble and on it's way back. Then eventually capsized after crew taken off.

 

I believe the wreck had to be sunk by other vessels after it had capsized. All British LCT 2 and 3 were prone to broaching -so would be difficult to take under tow if it lost power added to which the LC in question was armoured adding to instability and the Centaurs raised up out of the well deck on their ramps would exagerate this -it almost a miracle it did not capsize before the crew got off.

 

eddy8men

i know of 3 centaurs requiring turrets for restoration,

 

Eddy!:nono::nono::nono: I don't think they are considering recovery to assist MV restoration.:-D

 

Steve

[eddy8men]

better back on a hull, than slowly rusting away to nothing at the bottom of the sea.

 

eddy

[steveo578]

eddy8men

better back on a hull,...

 

True, better than poluting the sea -however I think they want the turrets for their hulls assuming they manage to recover them- certainly in France they pulled a sherman up by the turret -strop though the cupola and loaders hatch and ended up with only the turret:shocked:

 

Steve

[ajmac]

strop though the cupola and loaders hatch and ended up with only the turret

What a surprise....

 

Eddy, why don't you approach the Greeks, they need the cash. Do they have more than one 6 Pdr Cromwell preserved?

[Adrian Barrell]

The Greeks are Centaurs and there are a few in Portugal too.

[steveo578]

Some if not all the Greek Centaurs had the original flat engine deck. The turrets may have survived as they were used as strong points on the land borders- whether any are still in place is an open question. It is quite irritating that Portugal has a number of compete Centaurs -although I suppose one British museum exhibit may be a rebuild or completed to Cromwell standard.

 

Steve

[steveo578]

ajmac

What a surprise....

 

They did actually recover 2 complete M4A1 DD to the museum at Commes -all salvage is a learning curve.

 

Steve

[eddy8men]

hi alastair

i couldn't imagine how hard it would be to deal with the greek military or any foreign military for that matter, but i might have a solution to my problem anyway, once the wreck turret and ring is fitted to the charioteer hull i will be left with a centaur hull which would be ideal for an arv and seeing as i was in the reme i think it would be a fitting tribute to the unsung heroes of the battlefield.

 

eddy

[diver99]

Eddy!:nono::nono::nono: I don't think they are considering recovery to assist MV restoration.:-D

 

Steve

 

Steve, i hope i have not given the wrong impression. there is no plan by the NAS to recover, that's not what they do. They swim around and measure the wrecks in situ, (although they could do that on dry land where there is a cenatur etc.,) and pretend it's ground breaking academic archaeology and a benefit to the nation....while they rust away.

 

I am all for salvage and, yes using for MV restoration.

[diver99]

Some if not all the Greek Centaurs had the original flat engine deck. The turrets may have survived as they were used as strong points on the land borders- whether any are still in place is an open question. It is quite irritating that Portugal has a number of compete Centaurs -although I suppose one British museum exhibit may be a rebuild or completed to Cromwell standard.

 

Steve

 

I know of at least one Panzer 38 turret sat on top of a pillbox in Greece , so there must be tons of stuff. Last year, some WW1 period tunics were for sale at Beltring which had gone to Greece and have just re-amerged from some store.

 

Similarly, a warehouse was discovered in Italy full of human torpedoes, which had been forgotten.

 

Also..but that's another tale.

[steveo578]

diver99

Steve, i hope i have not given the wrong impression. there is no plan by the NAS to recover, that's not what they do.

 

Sorry I got the impression from you post#3

Get them up and have a uk version of the wreck museum at port en bessin, Normandy.

that it was some-one intent -not necessarily your guys, to pull them out as a museum? I can understand your point

pretend it's ground breaking academic archaeology and a benefit to the nation....while they rust away.

I used to prentend to do the same thing on dry land.

 

Ok Eddy get your flippers out you need to go for a swim.

Edited November 11, 2010 by steveo578

[steveo578]

eddy8men

i couldn't imagine how hard it would be to deal with the greek military or any foreign military for that matter,

 

Yes I would think wandering around the border with Macedonia, Bulgaria and Turkey which is still a hot zone without permission might be unwise, however back in the 1990s I got a really nice letter from the Greek Army in effect an open invitation to look around their historic stuff should I go to Greece so they can't be all that bad.

 

Steve

[diver99]

sorry steveo, i was just throwing that into the pot about having a museum of the wrecks.

 

I have a love hate relationship with archaeology. There is / has been some good archy, but there is an awful amount of crap as well. And academics try to make it sound like a black art.

[diver99]

Here some pics of the Centaur at Pegasus Bridge, this June 2010. Its geting the worse for wear and neglect.

[steveo578]

diver99

I have a love hate relationship with archaeology. There is / has been some good archy, but there is an awful amount of crap as well. And academics try to make it sound like a black art.

 

 

Me too, I once received an early morning ear ache 'phone call from a girlie from EH or the Uni regarding a tank recovery which was unfortuneatly within a Roman training camp boundary-so after listening to her rant I finally asked if she had a GCSE in German - why -because if it wasn't for the piece of s*** lump of rust she was berating and the men who used it she might be speaking German- needless to say she hung up.

 

Steve

[diver99]

Being a compute mong, earlier pics too small to see te rust.