Markings on British post-war vehicles

[10FM68]

Below are three photos.  Two of them may, just may, have the same or similar formation sign; the Ferret and the Austin Loadstar.  I think it must be some sort of training establishment (the flaming torch being a popular symbol of learning - though I know this isn't uniquely so).  Can anyone identify the sign for me?  Also if anyone can add to the detail about the Loadstar photo I'd be interested - who are they, for a start?  Where is the Ferret, do you think - it looks a bit like Warminster to me, but lots of barracks look a bit the same - the crew are RTR and appear to be flying an RTR pennant?

The third picture, from Pinterest, is an Austin K5, fine, post war, clearly, somewhere warm!  But, where and when?  The caption says Aden 1961, but the badge on the front suggests the South Wales Borderers, who weren't in Aden at that time (they were 6 years later, but would there have been any K5s left by 1967, even in Aden?)  The only other time the SWB were in the Middle East was Asmara, Eritrea in 1951, which would fit the ERM and the dress, and the badge, as that was a period when regimental badges were appearing in place of formation signs on some British vehicles abroad.  But... is that the answer?  Could it be another regiment with a sphinx in its capbadge?  The Lincolns, (Egypt 51-52) perhaps, or the Gloucestershire Regiment (Aden 54-56)?  Neither badge seems to me to match and a Glosters cap badge would, I should think, appear larger on the chap next to the driver.  How about the colour scheme - any ideas?  Is that faded DBG or a dark battleship grey?  The other tones seem right, so DBG doesn't seem likely (a chromatic issue with the printing) and the orange band?

 

All answers gratefully received.

[fv1609]

On the Ferret the flaming torch seems to be held by the armoured fist of the RAC. So presumably the RAC Training Bde/Rgt at Allenby?

Is the orange band not an air recognition identifier? I have some pics of K5s from when father in law was out there. Although B&W I'll see if there is anything similar on them.

[10FM68]

Thank you for that, Clive.  It certainly could be an RAC training regiment; I agree that the flame seems to be clasped by a mailed fist - is Allenby Bks at Bovington?  Do you think that that sign is the same on the Loadstar?

The stripe certainly could be an air-recognition sign, but, I thought the one for the Middle East was white and then when on light stone.  Orange on whatever it is, doesn't seem to tick the same box.  Please do have a look at you B&W photos.  And treasure them  I fear a time will come when all the photo on the internet will have been 'colorized' leaving us with an inability to spot a genuine colour photo and with the great unwashed believing in the colours they see - there are some crackers around already showing WWI tommies apparently in field grey with brown boots!

[fv1609]

Yes Allenby Bks at Bovington, I've stayed there a few times they were rather boozy events so my recollection is not too great about the layout although I remember the Saladin outside the Officer's Mess.

As for the lorry badge the central yellow part on a black background has a similarity to the 56th Infantry Bde. As for the colour I was tempted to suggest that it might be RAF blue-grey, but I hadn't considered whether the image had been got at.

The four C5s I identified from father in laws photos were in RAF service with RAF ERMs & painted something like Light Stone. He was in Aden 1954-56 so no clues there.

[Richard Farrant]

I have just found the insignia of the mailed fist with torch in a book called British Army Cloth Insignia and it confirms as Royal Armoured Corps Training Brigade.

[10FM68]

Thank you Clive and thank you Richard.  I have Howard Coles' 'Badges on Battledress' and there is nothing in there, but there is a badge for the RAC Training Centre in BAOR which has crossed lances and a WWI tank on the blue crusader cross on a red ground of BAOR, so that drew me away from an RAC training angle.  Do you think it is the same baadge on the Loadstar?

 

I'm not sure the badge on the K5 is a formation sign.  I think it is a regimental sign which are always difficult to identify as they don't always use the full capbage, nor the collar dog, but, perhaps, a cipher - the best example being that of RE which uses three badges, seemingly at random: the cap badge, the 'bomb' and the cypher.  I think the badge is something like that - a part of a badge or emblem unique to a particular regiment - in this case a sphinx within a laurel wreath (perhaps).  That points to the SWB, but could be any regiment, probably infantry, though with Egyptian battle honours. the Leicesters & the Glosters being two and there may be more.  For a time these badges replaced formation signs - in the late 40s, I think. I have a photo of a Scots Greys DAC in Palestine, somewhere with such a set-up.  But, the unit needs to have been wherever the K5 is for long enough to have put its signs on the vehicles. 

 

Incidentally, I was chatting to a young chap in REME the other day.  He tells me that, if an army vehicle now needs repainting, it cannot be done in the unit, but is sent back to 4th line - a civilian contractor, who will use water-based paints etc etc.  That may explain why army vehicles these days look so tatty for so long - what a ridiculous state of affairs!  Health & Safety, I suppose.

[Richard Farrant]

Hi 10FM68,

From zooming in on the Loadstar's tailboard it looks like the same sign as on the Ferret. The book I looked at had a photo of a cloth badge  with this insignia. Not sure of the K5 sign, but I do know from my time working for REME that the Austin K5 was still on the inventory list in the 1960's, although it could be that these had specialist bodies on. I recall a Bedford QLR in the Workshop in 1974 for a clutch change.

Regarding painting, the Workshop's paintshop often did vehicles from outside units and they made excellent jobs, like the HAC's Royal Salute Land Rovers that we prepared, and a number of vehicles and artillery for museums. They took pride in their work.

[wally dugan]

The k5 insignia looks like the one of the 92nd GORDON HIGHLANDERS

[Old Grumpy]

I would say the driver of the K5 could well be wearing the Glosters cap badge by the width of it and the badge on the front of the vehicle is a direct copy of the Glosters famous back badge. I'd go with the Glosters for sure.     Pete.

[10FM68]

Thank you to Richard, Wally and Pete for your contributions.  I can't imagine how I have missed these posts over the last week - where have I been?  Nowhere, is the answer as I can't drive, nor can I walk far until I have another op on my leg in March - all being well!  But, it was rude of me not to have replied more promptly - I shall keep a closer eye on these pages in future!

Thank you for the Loadstar Fmn sign ID - it certainly could be and that would then make the AOS sign red/yellow - which is 50% likely anyhow I suppose!

I think the K5 has to have been photographed earlier than 1961.  I certainly agree, Richard, that specialist bodied vehicles hung around much later than one might have thought in those days - the big clear-out didn't really start until the 80s, I suppose.  So, going with the photoas being in the 50s, then, yes, Glosters back-badge, certainly a possibility and the co-driver does, indeed have a large badge on his beret.

The badge is certainly close to that of the 92nd Highlanders, which, by then would have been 2nd Bn The Gordon Highlanders.  The trouble with that theory, though, is that the sphinx in the laurel wreath wasn't the primary sub-badge (if you know what I mean - the bits carried forward on amalgamations) of the Gordons and, of course, the co-driver ought to be wearing a glengarry or TOS!  And the 1st Battalion, the only one left by then, never served in the Middle East!

 

So, on balance, I am persuaded that the strongest case is that for the Glosters in 1954-56.

 

Thank you all.