Ron Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 (edited) I'm intently following the progress of a friend of mine who is building a replica 3TW, based on an original engine and gearbox that he's acquired. Has anyone got a set (or parts) of 3HW Webb forks for sale? Ron Edited June 5, 2021 by Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rewdco Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 I'm afraid that I can't help you with the forks Ron, but this looks like an interesting project! I'd love to read more about it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted June 5, 2021 Author Share Posted June 5, 2021 Hi Jan. Part 1 I've text him to ask if he minds me sharing some pictures. But briefly, the story is:- He acquired the engine (one of the production run) minus head that was found in a lawnmower in Cornwall. He was then contacted by a Triumph collector in France who had some parts that he didn't recognize. Turned out to be a 3TW head and some other engine parts. The next part is just as amazing, He saw this little blue special somewhere and instantly recognized the gearbox as 3TW. The owner said, you can have the gearbox as long as you replace it with anything suitable. But in the end he bought the whole bike as the 250 JAP engine is also extremely rare. When he removed the gearbox, it unbelievably has the same number as his engine. The rest of the blue special is for sale if anyone is interested. Registerd with V5C as a 250 BSA. To be continued. Ron 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rewdco Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 I'm sitting on the tip of my chair Ron! 😃 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted June 5, 2021 Author Share Posted June 5, 2021 Part 2. As it happens and very unlike Triumph not to use a frame and other parts from previous models. The frame is quite unique for the 3TW. He noticed that a Tiger Cub front frame section was very similar, so a frame was obtained and modification to the length of the headstock were under construction when I visited yesterday. The rear frame was initially mocked up with copper tube which he's now replaced and brazed up with the appropriate steel tube. Wheels have been built with the correct hubs and one of the other items that came from France was a 3TW front brake plate, which has a different orientation for the brake lever than the other Triumph lightweight models and also has a fitting for the brake cable adjuster....Which again supersedes the rod brake on all the others. He also hand made the oil tank with its built in air filter (You've been there Jan) The forks that are required are mainly identical to the Webb forks fitted to 3HW's but with the addition of side check springs. These are the latest pictures with a long way to go. We are planning a visit to Beaulieu in the very near future to view their 3TW and hopefully get some final needed measurements.........We believe the Beaulieu exhibit is the only example which we think was made up from surviving parts. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rewdco Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 I'm in awe! Fantastic project! As you may know, I have done a lot of research on the military lightweights. In early 1940, Enfield and Triumph both delivered two experimental lightweights to the B.E.F. in France, for trial. The Triumph contract number was C/6523 (demand date 8/3/40), the Royal Enfield contract number was C/6718 (demand date 1/4/1940). The exact delivery date and the exact frame numbers and census numbers are unfortunately unknown. But I wonder if these parts that have been found in France may have been the remains of one of these Triumphs...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted June 5, 2021 Author Share Posted June 5, 2021 That could well be the French connection then Jan. When I asked him how he'd found those parts in France? He said " I didn't! The bloke in France approach me and asked if I recognized any of it". He's had some amazing luck with finding parts for this project. There is another complete engine out there (gearbox??) I think the owner is a major Triumph collector and I think his intention was/is to put it in a standard lightweight frame? Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted June 5, 2021 Author Share Posted June 5, 2021 Oh PS. I just remembered, the unique timing cover was another part of the French horde! Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rewdco Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 You mean the timing cover as in the picture below Ron? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted June 6, 2021 Author Share Posted June 6, 2021 No Jan. That is the prototype/experimental type. The production run had a different timing cover as I think they changed the position of the alternator? .....Will have to check up on that though. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rewdco Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 But that's a 1942 picture Ron! Pannier frames, metal frame pillion seat, blackout mask... The bike surely didn't look like that in 1940. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted June 6, 2021 Author Share Posted June 6, 2021 As I say Jan, I will have to check my facts, as I've been bombarded with information about this bike and a job to soak it all up immediately. But this bike is number 19 of the 50 production models that were all but destroyed in the bombing in 1940. They were indeed fitted with BO mask, panniers, pillion and other modifications. I don't doubt your facts Jan, but how can there be a 1942 3TW? Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rewdco Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 Well, the second prototype was sent back and forth several times to the factory, the last time was in August 1942. Looks like the pannier frame picture dates from then. Definitely no pannier frames, pillion seat and blackout mask in 1940! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted June 6, 2021 Author Share Posted June 6, 2021 Again I will check where he's got his information from on his return from Wales in a week or so. The information in O&M quotes the spec of the pannier bike as 1940? Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rewdco Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 I'm afraid that I can't follow you Ron... According to O&M probably only 10 of the 50 bikes from contract C/8331 were produced before the Coventry Blitz that destroyed the factory. These "production" bikes were definitely too late to have been sent to France with the BEF... The two bikes that were sent to France with the BEF came from contract C/8020. O&M give frame number F1965 and engine number E1742 for the first bike, numbers of the second bike are unknown. It would be interesting to know the engine number of this French find! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted June 6, 2021 Author Share Posted June 6, 2021 It's frustrating Jan because I can't query it for another week and I can't get my scanner to work now. But the specification info I was referring to is on page 186 in O&M. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rewdco Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 I know that O&M is considered as "the Bible", but here they have it wrong Ron. No doubt this assumption was based on the picture above, which was definitely not taken back in 1940. Sometimes the Gods have it wrong... 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted June 7, 2021 Author Share Posted June 7, 2021 (edited) Yep I get that Jan and I guess he is building it to that 1942 spec. The 50 frame and engine numbers are recorded. Was it because of the bombing that only the "possible" 10 were taken up? His engine and gearbox are No 19 in the sequence. This pictures appears to be the 7th bike in the production run and we can see the lightweight pannier frames as mentioned in O&M. Ron Edited June 7, 2021 by Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rewdco Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 (edited) I've seen that picture before Ron! Wonder when it was published... Does anybody know? Anyway, I've dug a bit deeper in my archives. Found this RAOC Receipt Card for contract C/8331: It looks as if census numbers C4461718 - C4461741 had been allotted. But these numbers have been crossed out... because the Triumph factory was destroyed during the Coventry Blitz before anything had been delivered...? It must have taken some time to set up a new factory in Meriden. And there must have been a plan to build these bikes from the remaining parts. A new batch of 50 census numbers was created: C4854130 - C4854179. According to the front of this card, Chilwell received 12 bikes, at the back they mention 10 deliveries, on 1/12/42 (on "day 322", which was a weird day counting system that Chilwell was using). Ten or twelve bikes instead of fifty... Maybe that's all they could rescue from the bombed factory? And by late 1942 all WD motorcycles had "universal" pannier frames, metal frame pillion seats, 6" headlight with blackout mask, convoy tail lamp... This would explain the setup of the bike in the first picture of this thread, and also the picture from Ron's previous post... but that bike seems to have a pair of modified pannier frames and no pillion seat. I bet the bike in the first picture has also got these modified pannier frames, but we can't see them through the pannier bags... More research is needed here... Also about the fact that this engine was discovered in France. It definitely can't have been one of the two test bikes that had been sent to the BEF, that's for sure. But it's a fascinating project nevertheless! Edited June 7, 2021 by rewdco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted June 7, 2021 Author Share Posted June 7, 2021 We are gradually getting there Jan. But just to confirm, the engine was found in Cornwall with the head-timing cover- brake plate and other stuff coming from France. It also looks like the head is from a post war 3T, as the 3TW exhaust stubs should be screw in types. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rewdco Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 I've just re-read your post which explains the origin of the engine, ah, yes! Got it now! No BEF connection, that was only wishful thinking on my behalf... 😐 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
79x100 Posted June 8, 2021 Share Posted June 8, 2021 It's all most confusing....You'll recall these articles that you copied, Mr. Rewdco ! 😃 There seem to have been two bikes at MEE in July 1940 and then both Graham Walker and Arthur Bourne were invited to test a machine in about February 1941 - allegedly the first from a pre-production batch of fifty. The both grovelled at the altar of Edward Turner....Bearing in mind though that the Triumph factory had been destroyed in the Coventry blitz of November 1940, I wonder if this talk of a new batch was simply propaganda ? Bert Hopwood (who thought the 3TW a dreadful thing) refers to the two initial bikes actually being pre-war civilian prototypes adapted for military use - the only bike photographed was ERW 947 which was a May 1939 Coventry series which might back this story up. Hopwood states quite categorically in 'Whatever Happened to the British Motorcycle Industry' that the fifty special 3TW machines were made and assembled and were packed in their cases on the loading deck of the Despatch Department on the night of the Coventry Blitz and were destroyed....."I still feel that, so far as the fifty specials were concerned, Hitler did our War Office a favour" 😁 He makes no mention of where the ten machines in December 1942 might have come from but this was about the time that they moved to Meriden from the temporary assembly plant in Warwick.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted June 8, 2021 Author Share Posted June 8, 2021 As I'm learning about this, not everything is always as it seems! Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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