question ferret gearbox problem with pics!

[jim fl4]

Hi, Today I had the ferret running and tried moving it for the first time. The engines great, purrs, no smoke, plenty power, Flywheel also seems good. Gears all engage with no slip except for 2nd!!

 

Went and studied things and decided to shift the radio etc and get the gearbox top cover off. The pics are what I found!!!

Unlike any other pics I've seen on this forum :shocked: Basicallly, when the gear change pedal is activated the plate strikes the stop screw and then slides off it. ITs the only one to do it but some of the others are also a bit rear the top end of their stop screws. Since the pull rod is not level with the adjuster nut does this mean the bands are not worn out?

 

The pedal also flies right up when engaging 2nd, (no free play). The other gears all have varying amounts of free play.

 

Would any persons with the knowledge be kind enough to help diagnose what might be wrong and offer what might be done?

 

The 2nd pic is the 2nd gear problem, last pic is neutral and first 4th engaged.

 

Thanks again,

Jim.

[Starfire]

I'm not sure about the photos, but when 2nd flies up, does it require more force than first to push back down? It sounds like a false-neutral to me.

 

If that's the case, check the adjustment of the gear selector lever; the gates on the selector don't actually do anything and the selector is a simple push/pull lever on the gearbox. The actual order of the gears is 1-2-4-N-5-3 in a line, but if the rod is not actually lining up properly during selection, it can select the wrong gear or get a false neutral where the pedal springs back with considerable force (much more noticeable on a Saracen) and a gear is not selected.

 

Cheers,

Terry

[jim fl4]

I'm not sure about the photos, but when 2nd flies up, does it require more force than first to push back down? It sounds like a false-neutral to me.

 

If that's the case, check the adjustment of the gear selector lever; the gates on the selector don't actually do anything and the selector is a simple push/pull lever on the gearbox. The actual order of the gears is 1-2-4-N-5-3 in a line, but if the rod is not actually lining up properly during selection, it can select the wrong gear or get a false neutral where the pedal springs back with considerable force (much more noticeable on a Saracen) and a gear is not selected.

 

Cheers,

Terry

Hi Terry, Thank you for your help. Interesting what you say about the gear selection but I do manage to select a gear when I move the gear lever forward to its stop....its 2nd gear because now its in the workkshop with the lid off I can actually visibly see it happen when I press the pedal down! However, it does certainly require more force to push back down, but then its a lot higher up than when its in any of the other gears, if that makes sense!

 

The 2nd photo shows how the adjusting ring of 2nd gears automatic adjuster glances off of the head of the stop screw as the pedal come up...in other words, if it contacted the head of the stop screw more squarely I think the pedal would stop coming up earlier and thus I would have free play??

 

Thanks again, your help is very much appreciated :-).

 

Jim.

[Richard Farrant]

Nothing to do with gear selector in my experience. Band is out of adjustment for 2nd gear. You need to go through the adjusting procedure as explained in the EMER, it is called adjusting bus bar height. Each gear is independent, so only work on the gear with issues. Once done the bolt in the band (square headed one) will have to be reset in order for self adjusting to take place.

[jim fl4]

Nothing to do with gear selector in my experience. Band is out of adjustment for 2nd gear. You need to go through the adjusting procedure as explained in the EMER, it is called adjusting bus bar height. Each gear is independent, so only work on the gear with issues. Once done the bolt in the band (square headed one) will have to be reset in order for self adjusting to take place.

 

Hi Richard, I had been hoping you might reply :-):-).

 

Ok, I've already found a pdf file off another FV-701 internet site which I think I can use to help me with the adjustment. What does EMER stand for? I presume all the adjustment can be done with the box in-situ, through the inspection hole? Its good I only need to bother with 2nd gear:).

 

Will post accounts of my experience and result for the benefit of all.

 

Thanks for your invaluable help.

 

Cheers Jim.

[Richard Farrant]

Hi Richard, I had been hoping you might reply :-):-).

 

Ok, I've already found a pdf file off another FV-701 internet site which I think I can use to help me with the adjustment. What does EMER stand for? I presume all the adjustment can be done with the box in-situ, through the inspection hole? Its good I only need to bother with 2nd gear:).

 

Will post accounts of my experience and result for the benefit of all.

 

Thanks for your invaluable help.

 

Cheers Jim.

 

hi Jim,

I am tight for time right now, but just to acknowledge your post.

EMER is the technical document system for the Army, Electrical Mechanical Engineering Regulations

 

cheers for now

Richard

[Ex-boy]

hi Jim,

I am tight for time right now, but just to acknowledge your post.

EMER is the technical document system for the Army, Electrical Mechanical Engineering Regulations

 

cheers for now

Richard

 

Jim, Richard is correct, as ever, with the EMER reference, but that was the original REME system, dating from the 1940s (which my dad used during the war and I used in my service) and I suspect that any non-equipment ones have now been superseded. There are unlikely to be any equipments still in service using EMERs, but I stand to be corrected on that.

 

Steve.

[jim fl4]

hi Jim,

I am tight for time right now, but just to acknowledge your post.

EMER is the technical document system for the Army, Electrical Mechanical Engineering Regulations

 

cheers for now

Richard

 

Hi Richard,

 

I have located the relevant EMER doc. and will now make up a rod to measure the distance from busbar to underside of casing.

 

Thanks again :-),

 

Jim

[Richard Farrant]

hi Jim,

Great stuff, see how you go. When you screw the 2nd gear adjuster nut down to achieve the busbar height notice if it is free on the threads as something was stopping the auto adjuster from working, although it could have been from heavy use or a previous driver using it as a clutch and not going through the pedalling up procedure.

 

regards, Richard

[jim fl4]

hi Jim,

Great stuff, see how you go. When you screw the 2nd gear adjuster nut down to achieve the busbar height notice if it is free on the threads as something was stopping the auto adjuster from working, although it could have been from heavy use or a previous driver using it as a clutch and not going through the pedalling up procedure.

 

regards, Richard[/quote

 

Hi Richard, I've been to the machine and am now wondering 2 things. Firstly, whats the diameter of the gauge?, I think it must be quite slim? secondly, it appears as though the busbar is not visable due to it being below the oil level?

 

Also, are there any unofficial ways :shocked: :nut: the do this without access to the correct tool/gauge?

 

Many thanks

 

Jim

[Richard Farrant]

hi Jim,

Great stuff, see how you go. When you screw the 2nd gear adjuster nut down to achieve the busbar height notice if it is free on the threads as something was stopping the auto adjuster from working, although it could have been from heavy use or a previous driver using it as a clutch and not going through the pedalling up procedure.

 

regards, Richard[/quote

 

Hi Richard, I've been to the machine and am now wondering 2 things. Firstly, whats the diameter of the gauge?, I think it must be quite slim? secondly, it appears as though the busbar is not visable due to it being below the oil level?

 

Also, are there any unofficial ways :shocked: :nut: the do this without access to the correct tool/gauge?

 

Many thanks

 

Jim

 

Hi Jim,

A rod of about 1/4" diam (6mm) with rounded off end, the flat bar across top face of block which the gauge rod passes through with a pinch screw (it is shown in a cross section drawing in the EMER), The bus bar has a valley along its length and if you use the rod in between 4th and 5th adjusters you will be able to feel it in, no need to drain oil. You can adjust by a temporary method described in the EMER, done by trial and error and feel, but if you have not done it before, best to use the measuring way.

[jim fl4]

 

Hi Jim,

A rod of about 1/4" diam (6mm) with rounded off end, the flat bar across top face of block which the gauge rod passes through with a pinch screw (it is shown in a cross section drawing in the EMER), The bus bar has a valley along its length and if you use the rod in between 4th and 5th adjusters you will be able to feel it in, no need to drain oil. You can adjust by a temporary method described in the EMER, done by trial and error and feel, but if you have not done it before, best to use the measuring way.

 

Hi Richard,

 

Thank you for your reply. I must have missed the drawing:blush:. Armed with this info I will have a VERY tentative go and see what happens!!

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[jim fl4]

Hi, I engaged neutral, backed the adjuster screw right in, then selected/engaged 2nd gear and released the adjuster spring. Now from here on things get interesting :nut:.

 

The busbars height measurement is amount 8-10mm short of the 7.05 inch spec., ie the rod needs to go down that amount.

 

The adjuster nut is not willing to move! There doesn't seem to be a load pressing on it because I can move the adjuster ring easily in a slight arc.

 

The question is; ought the nut to move, regardless of the position of the rod its threaded to?....I assume it should but??

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Richard Farrant]

Hi, I engaged neutral, backed the adjuster screw right in, then selected/engaged 2nd gear and released the adjuster spring. Now from here on things get interesting :nut:.

 

The busbars height measurement is amount 8-10mm short of the 7.05 inch spec., ie the rod needs to go down that amount.

 

The adjuster nut is not willing to move! There doesn't seem to be a load pressing on it because I can move the adjuster ring easily in a slight arc.

 

The question is; ought the nut to move, regardless of the position of the rod its threaded to?....I assume it should but??

 

Cheers

 

Jim

 

Jim, have you reselected Neutral before trying to move the nut?

[jim fl4]

Jim, have you reselected Neutral before trying to move the nut?

:shocked: upps!! Nope:nut:

[Richard Farrant]

I hate to mention this but looking at your photos I would say the linings on 2nd gear band are well worn. The proof will be when you get the nut adjusted correctly and if the male thread is near the top of nut or protruding then the band needs changing.

[jim fl4]

I hate to mention this but looking at your photos I would say the linings on 2nd gear band are well worn. The proof will be when you get the nut adjusted correctly and if the male thread is near the top of nut or protruding then the band needs changing.

Hi Richard, My thoughts too :-| but got a few threads to go. Anyhow, just back in and with neutral engaged, ie pedal stays down, the nut is still not wanting to budge. Tomorrow I will try a bit more ummph.

 

Thanks again Richard.

 

Jim

[jim fl4]

Upps again :nut::nut: Got confused with fig. 8 - gauge setting; thought 'X' length was to the underside of the top casing, having looked again at the drawing I think I was mistaken, as it should be to the top face of the casing :blush:.

 

This means that the recorded X measurement for 2nd gear before doing adjustments is now much nearer to being the correct length, ie. 7.05inch.

 

Jim

[jim fl4]

Hi, Just a thought before I get strong with the adjuster nut... Whats the pull rod connection like at the other end?, obviously the last thing I want to do is to cause any damage down there, or worse still end up with it in my hands :shocked::shocked:?

 

Thanks again :-),

 

Jim

[jim fl4]

To those interested here's an update; The adjuster nut turned out to not be that stiff after all. I followed the EMER and found that actually very little adjustment was required to bring the measurements and the 'feel' of the pedal back correct. Still have approx. 3mms of pull rod travel before its level with the top of the adjuster nut.

 

Acid test came after re-assembly and, Yippee :-):laugh: not been able to induce any band slip, ie engine revving away with no increase in speed.

 

Fearful of being unable to re-start the adjuster nut I never did un-thread it completely from the pull rod. If I could have done this it would have allowed me a much superior look at the condition of the threads, because the nut is still a tad stiff on the threads of the pull rod and I do have my doubts as to whether it will continue to auto adjust?

 

I have been surprised how easy manual adjustment can be.

 

A big thank you to Richard Farrant for his expert advice, its people like Richard which make forums like this so great :-).

 

cheers

 

Jim

[Richard Farrant]

To those interested here's an update; The adjuster nut turned out to not be that stiff after all. I followed the EMER and found that actually very little adjustment was required to bring the measurements and the 'feel' of the pedal back correct. Still have approx. 3mms of pull rod travel before its level with the top of the adjuster nut.

 

Acid test came after re-assembly and, Yippee :-):laugh: not been able to induce any band slip, ie engine revving away with no increase in speed.

 

Fearful of being unable to re-start the adjuster nut I never did un-thread it completely from the pull rod. If I could have done this it would have allowed me a much superior look at the condition of the threads, because the nut is still a tad stiff on the threads of the pull rod and I do have my doubts as to whether it will continue to auto adjust?

 

I have been surprised how easy manual adjustment can be.

 

A big thank you to Richard Farrant for his expert advice, its people like Richard which make forums like this so great :-).

 

cheers

 

Jim

 

Thank you Jim!

It is always good to hear positive feedback. The nut needs to be free on the thread, so now you know how to get the adjustment, I suggest you run it up and down the thread a bit with some penetrating oil, although I cannot imagine it is rusty.

best regards,

Richard

[cooler07]

Thank you Jim!

It is always good to hear positive feedback. The nut needs to be free on the thread, so now you know how to get the adjustment, I suggest you run it up and down the thread a bit with some penetrating oil, although I cannot imagine it is rusty.

best regards,

Richard

.....

Hi Richard; James from Texas here, been sometime since we talked but I always follow your post.

 

Hope all is going great for you. We now have 2 Saladin's with 2 more on the way.

 

The reason I'm contacting you is to ask a question about your help with the ferret gearbox

adjustment.

 

I've attached a photo of the gearbox you were helping with.

 

My question; After looking closely I notice that 4 out of 5 of the adjuster stops "circled red" that they all seem the same distance.

 

On the gearbox's I adjust I set the stops to the factory length, but have always wondered that if the bands are not new should I set them manually?

 

I hope this makes since on my question.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As always thank you for your time sir.

best regards James 04CC45

[cooler07]

Thank you Jim!

It is always good to hear positive feedback. The nut needs to be free on the thread, so now you know how to get the adjustment, I suggest you run it up and down the thread a bit with some penetrating oil, although I cannot imagine it is rusty.

best regards,

Richard

 

 

James Hill from Texas here, been sometime since we talked but I always follow your post.

 

Hope all is going great for you. We now have 2 Saladin's with 2 more on the way.

 

The reason I'm contacting you is to ask a question about your help with the ferret gearbox

adjustment.

 

I've attached a photo of the gearbox you were helping with.

 

My question; After looking closely I notice that 4 out of 5 of the adjuster stops "circled red" that they all seem the same distance.

 

On the gearbox's I adjust I set the stops to the factory length, but have always wondered that if the bands are not new should I set them manually?

 

I hope this makes since on my question.

 

As always thank you for your time sir.

best regards James 04CC45

[Richard Farrant]

.....

Hi Richard; James from Texas here, been sometime since we talked but I always follow your post.

 

Hope all is going great for you. We now have 2 Saladin's with 2 more on the way.

 

The reason I'm contacting you is to ask a question about your help with the ferret gearbox

adjustment.

 

I've attached a photo of the gearbox you were helping with.

 

My question; After looking closely I notice that 4 out of 5 of the adjuster stops "circled red" that they all seem the same distance.

 

On the gearbox's I adjust I set the stops to the factory length, but have always wondered that if the bands are not new should I set them manually?

 

I hope this makes since on my question.

 

As always thank you for your time sir.

best regards James 04CC45

 

Hi James,

Good to hear from you again.

The answer to your question is this. If you have reset the bus bar heights you will go through the sequence explained in the EMER (workshop manual), where by you mark the position of self adjuster nut, unhook spring from one end and turn nut back a quarter of a turn. refit spring and select the gear, push pedal repeatedly and watch to see self adjuster working. I should stop at the position you marked on the nut, if not then adjust the square headed bolt, in or out as required and repeat the operation until nut returns to the position it was marked at.

 

Best of luck!

regards, Richard

[cooler07]

Thanks again Richard!!! A pint for you! Now it makes since!

 

Best regards James

 

 

 

Hi James,

Good to hear from you again.

The answer to your question is this. If you have reset the bus bar heights you will go through the sequence explained in the EMER (workshop manual), where by you mark the position of self adjuster nut, unhook spring from one end and turn nut back a quarter of a turn. refit spring and select the gear, push pedal repeatedly and watch to see self adjuster working. I should stop at the position you marked on the nut, if not then adjust the square headed bolt, in or out as required and repeat the operation until nut returns to the position it was marked at.

 

Best of luck!

regards, Richard