Calling Land Rover Wolf Owners, Help needed re LEZ

[LL25AA]

Apologies in advance for boring those who follow the other forums I'm on, but I'm having a bit of a flap here and want to gather as many responses as I can!!!

 

I am trying to find out from as many ex-mil diesel Land Rover , and especially Wolf, drivers as I can (post 1973, pre 2002) what their vehicles are classified as (seats and body type) by the DVLA on their V5 and whether they are listed as London Emission Zone compliant.

 

Short story is my long sought after Wolf 90 has (through my own stupidity) been registered as a 2 seater with body type Pickup, which is likely to make it non compliant when the tfl database catches up with it. Not good as I live just inside the zone.

 

All responses gratefully received, I'm looking for the best thing to try for before I go into battle with them to get the V5 adjusted.

 

thanks

shan

[LL25AA]

There seems to be all sorts of confusion over this. I know the official version on the TfL site is that only County Station Wagons are exempt, but a quick search of the the Land Rover and Military forums shows that there are so many contradictions to this that it's farcical. There's even one thread from a chap who has 2 Wolf's with one showing as compliant, one as not compliant, same engine, same year, and that is by no means an isolated case, hence my request.

[Marmite!!]

Why not put your question to TFL and get an answer from them in writing? no confusion then..

[LL25AA]

A telephone enquiry this afternoon concluded that if the vehicle is classified with body types of Pick Up or 4x4 Light Utility it will be subject to the charge, no argument. They advised that I could approach the DVLA to get the body type changed if I believed it to be incorrect, hence the call for information from other drivers. They agreed that either Estate, Station Wagon or Convertible would not be subject to the charge, but that it was up to the DVLA whether they would accept the change, so my question really is about seeing what the DVLA are most likely to accept without too much argument.

[Hannibales]

Alas, with most things in life, hindsight is a wonderful thing! Ideally you would have fitted some seats in the back and written 'Estate' as the body type and '6' for the number of seats on the V5C application. Mine came with seats fitted from Withams and I had it delivered to me and registered it myself as such. Having previously bought a landy off them, which was subsequently sold on partly because of the LLEZ, I knew what they were likely to do on the registration if I let them handle it.

 

As for what you do now, I'd get some seats and belts in there, get some photos taken of them in situ (possibly with the soft top sides rolled up to avoid questions about windows until you have time to fit them) and write a polite letter/email to the DVLA stating your case and pleading that you filled in the form incorrectly and that you're very sorry and won't do it again and please could they change the body type on your V5C.

 

If you're lucky and they're in a good mood...............it may not cost you too much! :-D

 

Best of Luck!

 

Oli

[LL25AA]

Thanks Oli,

 

Mine also already had benches in the back with seat belts. I have taken photos to show this, and also found a couple of pics with the roof completely off. Sending a grovelling letter today.

 

Shan

[TooTallMike]

Hi,

 

I was involved in a small way in the original negotiations regarding how the LEZ would be applied to collectors' vehicles so I know some of the background, which may help you understand why you are in this position. Please note I am stating the situation as it applies to your vehicle; I am not defending or promoting TfL's policies. Please also note this is an overview of the situation as the detail is very boring.

 

The purported intention of the scheme was to reduce the number of highly polluting diesel vehicles on the roads inside London. The newer the vehicle, the higher the Euro rating of the engine and therefore in theory the less polluting it will be. The scheme was intended to apply primarily to commercial vehicles rather than private cars. For simplicity TfL use the 'body type' as shown on the V5 to determine whether a vehicle is commercial or not. Anything which is not registered as 'estate', 'saloon' or similar (I don't know offhand the full list of acceptable body types) is assumed to be commercial. Private individuals who choose to drive commercial-type or commercially-derived vehicles are unfortunately caught since there is no exemption for this small minority.

 

Vehicles registered as 'Historic' are exempt for two basic reasons 1) their emissions rating cannot be determined due to manufacture before such things really mattered, and 2) there are so few of them in regular use on the roads in London that their contribution to pollution isn't really an issue and it isn't worth the bureaucracy involved in dealing with them.

 

There is an odd situation for vehicles such as Land Rovers, Astra vans etc. where the same drivetrain was used for both commercial and 'car' type vehicles. So I can drive my 300tdi Discovery 'Estate' in town but not a 300tdi van bodied 110 despite both having exactly the same engines and running gear. It is all down to what is on the V5.

 

It is very important to note that the body type is determined by the manufacturer and you should need a manufacturer's letter to have it changed by DVLA. I understand that Land Rover will only supply a letter stating the original body type of your vehicle based on the build record for the chassis no.; so for example they will state that a factory Station Wagon is an estate car, but a van bodied 110 converted into a station wagon is still a van body variant according to the chassis no. Therefore a Wolf with extra seats fitted in the back is still considered by LR to be a commercial type.

 

I would suggest that anyone who currently has an LEZ exemption for this type of vehicle has probably been economical with the truth somewhere along the line. A Wolf bought from Withams is almost certainly a commercial type according to the chassis number. Fitting seats to it and then declaring it to be an estate on the registration application is quite possibly fraudulent. Remember you are obliged to provide accurate information to the DVLA. If they accept information that subsequently turns out to have been incorrect it is your responsibility.

 

All that said I have heard apocryphal stories of people appealing directly to DVLA and/or TfL and gaining LEZ exemption for vehicles on an individual basis but I cannot corroborate this. The scheme is not intended to hit private individuals so any letter should emphasise this

 

As I see it you have a few possible solutions but I doubt you'll like any of them:

- replace the Wolf with something LEZ compliant (LEZ only applies to diesels so a V8 Snatch would be fine)

- fit several grand's worth of emissions abatement equipment

- fit a petrol engine (again a petrol V8 would be fine)

- move house to outside the LEZ

- store the vehicle outside the LEZ and don't use it inside

- rebuild your Wolf onto a genuine Station Wagon chassis

 

Sorry if this wasn't the news you hoped for :undecided:

 

- Mike

Edited January 15, 2014 by TooTallMike

[Tony B]

Why not put your question to TFL and get an answer from them in writing? no confusion then..

 

Oh LOOK!! There's a squadron of Pigs flying over!! :nut: It isn't actually TFL that decide what is what it is contractors! Hence we still have the load of S*ite. They wern't stupid and made sure the late not lamented Livingstone was done up proper so that any cancellation pf LEZ or congestion charge would cost a fortune. What ever has been suplied by the DVLA, if it is utility no chance. You have to go back to DVLA and change the body type.

 

There is one off chance, if you do the research. Back when Land Rover's were new a farmer was done for speeding in a commercial vehicle. The court overturned the offence on the grounds that a Land Rover was a 'Dual Purpose ' vehicle. If you can find the case and the judgement you have an argument as a precedent wa sset, which has up to now been accepted.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Tony B

[LL25AA]

Thanks Mike, Tony,

 

I see how it all got into that mess, just another reason to move further out of London, and there are many. Schools should cease to be an issue in the next year or two, and an extra half hour commute will be well worth it.

 

All I can hope for is that the DVLA change the type without too much fuss, which you would think wouldn't be that big a deal in a sensible world, seeing as it was me that registered it just a couple of months ago, quite obviously incorrectly just on the grounds of the number of seats. It had 6 seats when it was in service and had 6 seats when I bought it!!

 

if that fails, I'll go down the path of appealing to TfL on the grounds that it is obviously a recreational vehicle, not a commercial, you never know.

 

Thanks to everyone for their responses, the letter went this morning so I guess it's hurry up and wait!

[LL25AA]

SUCCESS!!!!!!!

 

 

Got home this afternoon to find a crisp new V5 with the body type ESTATE and No. of Seats 6.

 

 

Checked on the TfL website, still listed as not compliant. Looked at the registration form, nowhere to tell them the change so I called. Took about 20 seconds for the girl to check their records, told me to check on the site again, and bingo, Not Subject to LEZ.

 

 

Now to start hunting for that hardtop again

 

 

Thanks to everyone here and on EMLRA and the 3/90/110 owners club for their advice and support.

[Tony B]

Ah the joys of DVLA and VOSA ! Wait till they get together, the Sublime joining the ridiculous. Thing is there is now a precedent to quote.

[LL25AA]

Thing is there is now a precedent to quote.

 

I hope so, but to qualify that, I was asking them to correct my own mistake of just a few months ago, not change someone elses decision on how it should be classified.

 

Still, if this helps someone else avoid this stupid legislation I'm doubly chuffed.

[Tony B]

So far TFL has not acepted a tub back with side becnches in a couple of cases I know. So that helps a lot. The soft top has also been sniffed at. Maybe you got 'The last application before going home'. :cool2:

[TooTallMike]

Did you manage to get a letter from Land Rover stating that your vehicle is now an estate?

 

- MG

[MatchFuzee]

Don't forget to let your insurance company know about the changes to your Land Rover and V5 or you could have invalidated the policy.

 

Once you have told the insurance company of any change, even unbolting a seat to increase the load space is a change that may affect your insurance.

[LL25AA]

@Mike - No I just sent a letter and some photo's asking them to correct the "obvious mistake I had made in my original application"

 

@MatchFuzee - Good call, hadn't thought of that in my shock at not being totally stuffed by "the man"