bonnie_scott Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) Just when you feel you are making progress your Landy goes and knocks you down again :cry: In what seems a epic trial I have finally started re-assembly of the gearbox and associated bits on my Snatch. One of the problems had been a badly chewed up ring gear and very worn pinion(?) on the starter. After a pig of a job getting the starter off I have just fitted an (allegedly) recondition ex-military V8 one bought off flea bay. I had cleaned all the connections and when tested it worked fine, flinging the pinion out with gusto and spinning nicely. So next job, fitted the flywheel with new ring gear. Ever the pessimist I have just tried to turn the old girl (yep being restrained at this point) over to confirm that the starter engaged with the ring gear OK. After a very momentary movement things came to a halt with the (so called) click of death. Went and had a look and the pinion gear was still engaged so turned the flywheel by hand (not easy) and it released. Checked the juice in the battery plenty there (or at least wasn't taking much charge) and tried again, same result small movement, then stop, then click click click. Freed it off again and thought third time lucky (I do sometime swing wildly over to full optimistic mode) only to have my hopes dashed once again. I have had a look at where the pinion was engaging and no evidence of damage. I have noted that the 'new' starter has a different shaped pinion gear, the older one had slightly beveled (?) ends and also a crank/kink in the end, presumably to help engagement. Also once removed I discovered the old one was manufactured by Magnetti Marreli (sp) and the new one is a Lucas (hopefully freshly recondition with new supplies of the magic smoke). Looking about the web there seems to be lots of mentions of poor earth, To be honest I can't tell where this is earthed to as there are three wires to one threaded connection on the solenoid (?) which are the live direct from the battery, a wire that goes off to the alternator and what I think is one half of the circuit for the switch from the ignition. The only other wire going to the solenoid is a bayonet/push fit and is I think the other part of the switch circuit. There is a short lead from one end of the starter to the solenoid, which if I were to guess, I would think was the earth (via the body of the starter mating to the engine) Apologies for my attempts at war and peace, but I just wanted the lay the problem out as clearly as possible. Any/all help/suggestions (please keep em polite;)) are greatly appreciated. Now off to lie down in a darkened room, Julian Edited May 1, 2012 by bonnie_scott typos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nudge Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Stupid question time ...... Have you fitted the ring gear/flywheel the right way round. (its been known) Do the gears mesh,are they matching, not one bevel cut and one straight cut? ( this is landrover remember,they have so many different options for each model......) can you turn the engine over by hand ..... why was the pinion and ring gear mashed in the first place? and finally just because you have the volts in the battery,don't mean you have the amps needed to turn the engine over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjrespect Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 hello give barry a ring at dfj automotive they deal in military starters and rebuild with oe part not the chinese crap it will be a cheap drive or solonoid 01772 705833 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie_scott Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 Thanks for the speedy response Hmmm, The ring gear is on the side closest to the engine, if fitted the other way round the pinion gear would be striking a flat surface, so I'm hoping I have got it the right way round. However I am beginning to regret not taking an abundance of pictures along the way as it's taken longer then expected and my memory has never been that great. Both the ring gear and the pinion are what I would call straight cut but as far as I can see from underneath with a torch they do appear to mesh, but I was hoping that the wisdom of the forum might tell me if I have got the wrong starter. All I can say is that the ring gear was supplied to the part number from a LR parts manual dated 87-88 and this is a 93 vehicle and appeared to match visually with the one I removed (where it still had teeth anyway). But stranger things have happened. Go juice in the battery, It did have enough to start the Landy fine before I started this epic job (well to me it's epic) even if it's not up the standard of many of the excellent restorations on the forum, and the battery looks in good nick. Can only guess at the reason for the damage to the ring gear, The members H Sqd of 1 RTR wanting to make a sharp exit from downtown Basra was my best guess. Finally, I can turn the Flywheel by hand, takes a bit of effort and you can feel the resistance of the pistons but I have plenty of dead weight to help overcome the inertia when pulling/hanging downward. The engine ran really sweetly before I started it was unpleasant noises from the gearbox under load that went away when coasting, that started me down the path of a 'new' gearbox. Starter/ring gear issues found on removal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nudge Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) Thanks for the speedy response Hmmm, The ring gear is on the side closest to the engine, if fitted the other way round the pinion gear would be striking a flat surface, so I'm hoping I have got it the right way round. However I am beginning to regret not taking an abundance of pictures along the way as it's taken longer then expected and my memory has never been that great. Both the ring gear and the pinion are what I would call straight cut but as far as I can see from underneath with a torch they do appear to mesh, but I was hoping that the wisdom of the forum might tell me if I have got the wrong starter. All I can say is that the ring gear was supplied to the part number from a LR parts manual dated 87-88 and this is a 93 vehicle and appeared to match visually with the one I removed (where it still had teeth anyway). But stranger things have happened. AHHHH the old landrover part number chestnut ...... been there, done that, got stung many times ......:mad: I had 3 rover eights in bits at one point .......2 different starter types ........ Another (stupid) quick thought, will it spin it over if you take the plugs out? ie no compression to fight? Oh and there should be an earth strap from one of the starter mounting bolts to the chassis. Edited May 1, 2012 by Nudge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie_scott Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 Thanks again for your help with this. I's rather not start doing things with the engine. Partly because I know it was going really well before I started on the gearbox, and partly as it the full military shielded ignition system...... The earth strap is a new one on me. wasn't one on there before..... Do I just need a decent cable an run one end from the lower cap head screw? (top one is the one I had all the hassle with and it a pig to get at) and bolt to a nice shiny bit of the chassis member? I was doing some surfing earlier and there does seem to be an official earth lead for the V8 block (Cable, engine to earth lead early V8 - PRC3625 allegedly). Any idea where this would/should be fixed to the block? I've done some digging in my Filling (well sort of) system and found that the Ring Gear was part number 611323 and the re-con starter was meant to be RTC6061N. Bearing in mind your earlier comments, this did seem to be the right?? combination for the Carb fed, low compression 3500 cc V8 favoured by the MoD.... Cheers, Julian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nudge Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 You can buy earth straps at Halfords. Just fit one end onto what bolt you can get to, and bolt onto a nearby bracket on the chassis. When i did my engine swap, (Swapped out a completely knackered td, and fitted in a V8 ....long story,don't ask..) i put 2 earth straps on the block,and one on the gearbox. (hedging my bets so to speak) As to part numbers, i gave up on them yrs ago, i used to take the offending part to my supplier and get them to match it up.got caught out to many times. Is the gearbox on or off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUNSFOLD Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 We had a problem with the bellhousing being cast to thickly around the ring gear area. After fitting a brand new santana gearbox the ring gear fouled and jamed the engine. I have fitted two gearboxes and had to die grind around the ring gear in the bellhousing. I am gusing that the new ring gear is a knats larger than the old one and that is the problem. I Am assuming the engine is fitted to the bellhousing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie_scott Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share Posted May 2, 2012 Hi Nudge & Dunsfold, I've had so many little hassles with this along the way that I hadn't got any further than refitting the flywheel, before testing. As the engine had needed a little choke to start I reasoned that just turning it over briefly wouldn't be enough to start it. Given the hassle of refitting the gearbox (Santana LT85) with just a small hole through the floor, the armoured floor doesn't appear to be easily removable without taking the rear body back, I wasn't going to refit and then find a problem . Looking at it, the ring gear does clear the casting on the starter that hold the central shaft. However if Dunsfold is right and the ring gear is marginally larger than it's meant to be I guess the pinion could get stuck as the gears wouldn't mesh properly. I was going to hunt around various cars I have to see if I could steal an earth strap in reasonable condition to see if that solves the problem. Nudge - Halfords would be good, but I find the 220 mile round trip a bit tedious The Landy is not at the house so I was going to drop by tomorrow with the camera to take some pictures and measurements of the stuffed starter to see if any of you knowledgeable people on the forum could identify the specific one I'm looking for as I do know the pinion gear on the starter does look different. Dunsfold, I'm really hoping the ring gear doesn't foul the bellhousing as I really just might begin to get miffed if I fix this problem (on top of all the others so far) only to find another - Argh. Thanks again, Julian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nudge Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Use a jump lead as a substitute earth lead. clamp on somewhere convenient on the engine,and go straight to chassis or if you can get to it,neg terminal on battery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nudge Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Hi Nudge & Dunsfold, I've had so many little hassles with this along the way that I hadn't got any further than refitting the flywheel, before testing. Julian err scuse another stupid question, but what did you fit first, the starter or the flywheel ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie_scott Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share Posted May 2, 2012 Hi Nudge, fitted the starter first and tested this (obviously with no load on it) and it appeared to work fine. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppypiesdad Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 unloaded motor will turn , but loaded ones thats a different matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nudge Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Hi Nudge, fitted the starter first and tested this (obviously with no load on it) and it appeared to work fine. Cheers AH........ that may be your problem ..... fit the flywheel first then fit the starter. The flywheel has very little,(in most cases none at all) play/adjustment, whereas the starter does have some. So you need to fit the flywheel first,get that bolted down and sorted, then when you refit the starter motor it will find its own adjustment, so to speak, when meshing with the flywheel. If the motor isn't in the 'right place',you'll be forcing the flywheel against the gear so causing an issue. dont need to remove starter completely,just slacken off all bolts and let it find its own position. You didn't want to hear that i know .........:cry: Hope that made sense. steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie_scott Posted May 3, 2012 Author Share Posted May 3, 2012 :dancinggirls::dancinggirls: It's sorted!!!!! Thanks for all the replies and comments :tup:: And particular thanks to Nudge for his top tip on the jump lead/temporary earth :saluting: Did as suggested and she tunrned over first time no problem. Then I might have been a bit naughty :whistle: and gave her some choke and turned over a couple of times more and then the beast roared Just keep my fingers crossed that the interference problem raised by Mr Dunsfold doesn't raise it's head. :eek: P.s. Yes I am also trying for the record of the most smileys in a posting;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nudge Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Yay :D:D:D:D:D:D Glad you got it sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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