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T-36 Iron Fireman Snow Tractor info wanted


Gordon_M

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t3600004.jpg

Just had my new toy delivered. These came with WC series T214 engines and transmissions, the casting codes on the engine are June / July 1944.

I have a couple of shots of it with a previous owner around 2004, somewhere in northern California or southern Oregon I think, parked next to what I think is a green and yellow PW;

t3600001.jpg

I'd like to get in touch with them as it may be that they have, or know how to find, the dash panel with the all-important serial plate on.

Anyone ever run across one of these before? literature, info, reports?

 

gordon(at)dodge.org.uk

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Morning Robin.

 

I can't help comparing it with my Sno-cat, admittedly made about nine years later. Both use the Dodge six and four speed as motive power, both are about the same size and were built in the same area of the world.

 

The Sno-Cat has full suspension, wagon steer, articulated pontoons with huge attack angles, and excellent ground clearance.

 

The T-36, with the same horsepower, has no suspension, limited rocker travel on the bottom bogies, no articulation between the track frames, several inches ground clearance, and the tracks were made from conveyor belt which had metal drive lugs bolted through inside and huge metal grousers bolted outside. I have a shot somewhere of a new T-36 which has torn off several grousers just turning on a hard surface.

 

Sometimes these things are SO useless they don't get beyond the first production batch - as in this instance - and it is instructive to have one because they are so terrible. It's like the Sinclair C5 of snow transport, and certainly needed the winch hidden under the drivers seat.

Edited by Gordon_M
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been tinkering with the new toy today and uncovered a few things.

 

Just in front of the cab is a space and hatch designed to take the same engine heater flue as you find on the contemporary M7 Snow Tractor, as seen in the pics.

 

There are twin fuel tanks with isolation taps, but only the right hand tank had a gauge in it. Presumably in normal use both isolators would be open, both tanks on line, and the fuel would find its own level, which would be reflected on the guage.

 

There's a large rectangular rivetted section in the centre of the roof panel, looks like there has been a hatch, or provision for one, off the assembly line.

 

Just like the Weasel, the driver had the ability to open or close a hatch on the radiator inlet duct from the drivers seat position. I'd guess it was normally shut for warm-up and bad weather / deep powder snow operation, but could be opened remotely if the engine temperature got hotter than it should be.

 

The engine, transmission, and engine compartment are Dodge silver, and the outside of the cab has obviously been white originally, but a lot of the door surrounds, battery box cover, and other panelling has olive drab on it.

 

Oil pressure gauge output at the block has an electric sender unit in place of the normal piping to the gauge. Wouldn't have been reading very high as when I pulled the dipstick it was absolutely bone dry, not even a sign of oil on it. The sump looks intact, and all the oil lines and filter connections are OK, so I'm hoping it has just dripped out of the sump over the last half century when it has been stood.

 

Conversely the radiator and cooling system are full.

 

Today's most puzzling discovery is the date info. I'd already noted the T214 engine casting date as 7-11 and the head as 6-17, and I assumed they referred to 1944 production as that is when all the T-36s were supposed to have been made ( Crismon ) However on checking the transmission I found it is dated 6-5-43, so I'm now assuming the whole vehicle is exactly a year older than I thought, being made mid-43. There's no way that transmission has been out of there in the last half century, and it is painted into a unit with bellhousing, block, and head.

 

Added later - well I went and checked the Build Card listing for T214 numbers and dates. I found T214-175076 dated April 6th 1944, and T214-192914 dated August 1st 1944, and the T-36 engine is T214-191328, so July '44 it is. Must have had a transmission swap back in the day and got a '43 transmission, as there's no way a transmission would be sitting around for a year during a war.

t3600037.jpg

t3600036.jpg

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Edited by Gordon_M
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Hi Gordon,

 

Looks like a nice unusual project! what carb does it have? Carter DTB?

 

Regards,

Matt.

 

Hi Matt,

 

 

 

 

 

Actually I have no idea - I assumed it was just the equivalent Dodge civilian carb, haven't looked at the model number. It is visually identical to a couple of other Dodge carbs kicking around the shop somewhere.

 

 

 

 

I had a look round the engine bay to see what was what, and made a few notes. The engine bay is sort of tall and thin, so the carb on there is fine - would be no room for either of the conventional T214 carbs because of the width they take up. No clue as to air cleaner mount position.

 

Engine accessories are all pretty much standard for a 1944 T214, with the exception of the electric sender for the oil pressure gauge. Starter has been the foot pedal type but now broken, and it has a white factory plate on it and not the green I'd expect. ( Dodgers will know that it is red plates for 6 volt electrics and green for 12 volt - never seen white )

 

Exhaust stub points at the right hand track frame so there would have been a silencer box there somewhere. I'm not sure about that bracket sticking up next to the exhaust outlet - it hasn't been burned or heat marked, and isn't really strong enough to mount an exhaust. It would be a bit of an odd place to mount a serial plate though - I'd think it was an odd location for an aircleaner too, but maybe an Oakes unit like the jeep?

 

I see the radiator hoses have been replaced with flexibles, and the combination of the factory-type rivetting on the roof hatch blank,

 

 

t3600040.jpg

 

replaced gearbox, and electric oil sender ( just visible behind the oil filter return hose to the block in one of these images ) is pointing me at a unit that was made for Uncle Sam but possibly bought back for a factory rework and sell on to the civilian market - no evidence though.

 

I even managed to find the dash plate, which is no help. The space in front of the driver is filled by a rectangular plate, which I found loose in the vehicle. Holes for mounting and paint confirm it is original, but there's no sign of any instrument or control holes, fixtures, fitting, welding, or where they had been removed.

 

I know this thing would have a full set of instruments, just not where they would be mounted. I noted the speedo drive outlet on the gearbox has a small gear adapter on it too, but no routing for cable, or where it would be mounted.

 

Ah well. Dennis Spence at Portrayal Press doesn't have a manual on file, but he does have a Parts List which he is copying for me. If it has images, so much the better, but even if it doesn't the list of parts and numbers will tell me what bits I need to put on - just not where they go ....

 

Kepe Dodging

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t3600042.jpg

t3600019.jpg

Edited by Gordon_M
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It's a thought, but if it was used in blowing power snow you'd at least need an eaircleaner to keep the snow out the carb.

 

It does seem to have what I would describe as standard US Army equipment. Towing points front and rear that look like they would mount jeep pintle hooks ( too small for standard Dodge ones, and these ones are four bolt so not M7 type which are two bolt ) There is a bracket which goes over the radiator top frame which has the marks on it where two standard blackout pod lights have been removed, but only mounting for one taillight on the left rear roof corner ( I'd have expected standard lights - one on each side )

 

As I said, I expect the Parts List will answer a lot of questions. I think the headlights would be standard jeep or Dodge pods - Parts List will tell me which. Hopefully it will also list the instruments, but I'd guess they would be standard round 2" oil pressure, water temperature, fuel, and ammeter, plus speedo and the rotating type of blackout switch.

 

t3600015.jpg

 

An uninteresting colletion of bits, but still.

 

Top is an engine side panel in steel, the rectangular plate goes on what I thought was a dashboard location, the bent metal bracket sits across the top of the radiator and takes two standard blackout pod lights, plus the little roller hooks up to a handle in the cab to raise or lower the radiator top cover.

 

The rectangular panel to the left, with the cutout in it, is Aluminium. It has the same silver paint as the other engine panels and the same Dzus-type fasteners, just haven't figured out where it fits yet.

Edited by Gordon_M
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Hi Gordon,

 

Looks like a nice unusual project! what carb does it have? Carter DTB?

 

Regards,

Matt.

 

Hi Matt,

 

I had a specific look at the carb today while I was tinkering. It's a Carter E7 T2, basically a Carter made specifically for the Dodge Power Wagon and Dodge trucks around 2 ton, 1953 to 1960.

 

Gordon

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Well tracks are on the list Matt, but well down the line.

 

There are some major items on the agenda;

 

1. Dig up paperwork, manuals, reference shots - particularly to show me instrument mounting and layout. Dennis Spence at Portrayal is sending me a Parts List copy.

 

2. Remove cab or rework sheetmetal while cab in place - a real pain because it is galvanised metal and 3/16" rivets.

 

3. Remove and clean fuel tanks, use the increased access to refit the front tow point ( wouldn't want to weld right next to the fuel tank on either side )

 

4. Assess the engine. Maybe reverse the later additions like the carb, oil pressure sender, and corrugated hoses. Get engine up and running.

 

To a large extent it'll depend on time, money, and the ease ( or lack of it ) when I try to pull the cab and track frames.

 

As I get into it I'll measure up for tracks. Basically the original 24" conveyor belt ( 609mm ) will be replaced by 600mm belt, cut and joined to length. Length may be a little tricky as it appears that it has to be an exact multiple of 9.5" ( the pitch of those drive lug holes in the sprockets ) Looks like I'll have to measure the circumference as it is, then re-tension the drive chains by moving the rear drive sprockets back, then move the front return rollers back to achieve the same circumference.

 

Making tracks will be expensive, so I only want to do it once and get it right. The longer I leave it, the more chance of finding another T-36 survivor and copying tracks and instrument layout.

 

Yesterdays finds included suspension - yes, despite Crismon's write up, the T-36 has both front suspension and (limited ) track frame articulation.

 

Actually, you might be able to help here Matt with your Cletrac expertise. The diff is controlled by the two levers, and it looks like they have small ratchet setups on them so they could be used as handbrakes - one has a few small bits missing from the ratchet.

 

Is that the same as your Cletrac? Who would have spares for those little ratchet bits then? Some time down the line I'll need to get manusal and parts list for the diff too - don't believe it wont be the same as the bomb tug given that it is mid-1944 production

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Thanks Matt,

 

I don't expect I'll have anything other than the standard setup. I think one ratchet is complete and one has at least one part missing, so any parts illustrations or manual hints appreciated.

 

I'm thinking that I won't be doing anything on the diff for some considerable time. It is a well-proven design, standard, and isn't likely to have seen much use on a T-36 so I'm not expecting severe maintenance requirements. Basically check the oil and the steering brakes.

 

I also discovered yesterday that the drivers seat is only a few inches above the winch drum, so I won't be running the winch very quickly for whatever reason. They have allowed for that in the design though, as the rectangular metal panel above the winch and below the drivers posterior is 1/8" thick - presumably for safety purposes.

 

Still haven't found a stamped chassis number on it - must look harder.

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Thanks Matt, I'm wrong again, that looks a much more solid arrangement than the one on the T-36.

 

Maybe the diff I have isn't even the same model - need to check.

 

Thanks for taking the images.

 

Gordon

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It is quite a standard drivetrain. I've roughed out a blurb for an upcoming Army Motors, basically to try and uncover more info / owners / survivors.

 

1944 Dodge T214 radiator, engine and transmission, drives straight into a Cletrac diff which has two sprockets on the end, those sprockets chain-drive the two rear rollers. There are screw adjusters on each back roller which allow each chain drive to be adjusted, after which the track tension can be taken up or down by similar screw adjusters on each front roller. Front rollers have a small spring mount too for forward impacts.

 

The PTO and winch drive is a little unusual. The PTO comes off the passengers side of the transmission, and drives another chain down to a layshaft which runs back and then up to a winch mounted directly under the drivers seat.

 

 

The original Crismon write up in US Military Tracked Vehicles mentioned a chain drive between the transmission and the Cletrac diff, which it doesn't have, and it also stated that it had no suspension, which it does have, although the front suspension and track frame articulation is a little limited it does exist. The track frames articulate from one of the fixed side points near the Cletrac-end sprockets, about 2/3rds of the way along the vehicle, and about 1/3rd of the way along, under the radiator-ish, there is a transverse leaf spring which allows track frame articulation and suspension by floating two bolts in slots about 4" long.

 

Mechanically it is quite a piece of work, and not nearly as crude a design as I first thought, but I'm sure the conveyor-belt tracks were a weak point. There's no way this thing would match a Sno-Cat on articulation or traction over snow.

Edited by Gordon_M
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Noted, thanks Matt.

 

Dennis tells me the Parts List is on its way, so I'll probably wait till I know exactly what model / part number it is before I go posting ther, but I'll have a look round.

 

Thanks again.

 

Gordon

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  • 2 weeks later...

Still tinkering with the Fireman, and a couple of things have turned up.

 

Dennis Spence at Portrayal has provided an ORD-8 Parts List, and Clell Ballard has let me have a copy of an article he did when he discovered another one some years back, in poor condition, which is now with Gil Mangle's Miracle of America Museum in Polson, Montana.

 

Clell also suggested that Studebaker had the original dibs on the T-36, from February to July 1943, when it was handed over to Iron Fireman for development. The first four Iron Fireman production, with the cab offset way back; as visible in this Camp Hale image during the Mountain and Winter Warfare Board tests;

 

 

 

... were tested and deemed "unsatisfactory" by May 1944, resulting in a July '44 redesign with cab further forward, tracks further apart, and different track drive details.

 

Clell thinks it is possible that Studebaker produced the batch of 36 for Iron Fireman.

 

It appears that even the redesigned T-36 units didn't do that well in tests against the Weasel and the Allis-Chalmers M7, in large part because it was a ton heavier than either of them, so the existing 36 production units were assigned to rescue duty along the land air corridor of the aircraft ferry routes, after the cabs were painted bright red for visibility purposes.

 

Other snippets;

 

It should be equipped with a Weasel windscreen wiper motor, and Weasel type signal / trouble light plus pistol grip, and it has provision for the Allis Chalmers M7 type of engine heater furnace and flue.

 

Other items that I thought non-original, like the electric sender for the oil pressure, turns out to be factory, as most of the gauges ( oil, water, speedo ) were taken from G-104 Sherman stuff rather than G-502 Dodge 3/4 ton.

 

Even the rather silly little gear knob that I was going to remove and replace with a standard Dodge one, turns out to be identical to the one on the second machine, so undoubtedly factory.

 

Gordon

t3600003.jpg

Edited by Gordon_M
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Sorry Matt, I've been updating several discussions and didn't get back to you on that.

 

Let's see now;

 

winch is a Braden M2, basically same as the MU2 on the 3/4 ton Dodge series, but not underslung, so no 'U' in the designation.

 

Differential and final drive part numbers are all CLE Cletrac numbers, except for the sprockets and chains, but the CLE numbers are only cross-referenced to the G231 part codes, so although the diff is reputed to be Cletrac MG type, it would have been a special build.

 

Steering levers and brakes are quite different to yours, though I'd guess a lot of internals would be identical;

 

 

 

Differential ratio is 2.42 to 1, if that helps with a comparison?

 

Comparing your images with mine, it does look like it could be the same diff, with the G231 version having the levers cranked inwards to leave room for throttle and clutch pedal access.

 

G

t3600068.jpg

Edited by Gordon_M
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  • 6 months later...
  • 1 month later...

I had three jobs to do today and struggled the get the time to fit them all in.

First was cutting out and cleaning up the small areas of aluminium roof edge that had rotted out and filled with handfuls of filler. I did the entire front edge above the screen last week, now it was time for the six smaller areas on the side and rear, all six were pretty much the same;

Before;

sideb.jpg

After;

sidea.jpg

While I was cutting out the edge above the screen, I noted that the centre pillars and been impacted with something and pushed back, so next job was to rig up a bar and jack those out again - quite tricky as they had been hit in more than one area and ended up a bit Z-shaped;

During:

scrn1.jpg

After;

scrn2.jpg

When that lot was done I had to finish cutting off the rear panel, which had rusted through in several areas. This also involved cutting back the extreme lower corners under the doors as those had been bodged ( read Bubba'd ) with tin and filler too;

After;

rear.jpg

I noticed that there was a small rivetted steel plate centred just below the rear window, with no apparent function. I'd guess this was where a trailer socket would have been put in if they had decided that it needed one.

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