Eaglehurst Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Does anyone know if British 1960 Pattern DPM issue kit was made by anyone other than James Smith & Co (Derby)? I have several examples of the smocks and trousers but all by the same maker... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 British DPM camouflage was not introduced into the Army until 1970, when it appeared on the existing 1960-pattern combat smock and trousers.....this combat suit was replaced during 1971 by the improved 1968 pattern combat suit comprising smock, liner, trousers, hood and cap..... There are many manufacturers who produced the DPM combat smock and trousers....James Smith & Co of Derby were one of the larger manufacturers, alongside Cookson & Clegg Ltd. Other manufacturers include H E Textiles Ltd, Clayton St.Mill, H Lotery & Co Ltd, Dashmore Clothing Ltd, Wm Brownlee Ltd, Jeltek Weatherguard Ltd, Compton Webb Ltd, Supercraft Garments Ltd, Beaver of Bolton Ltd, etc, to name but a few....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted April 26, 2011 Author Share Posted April 26, 2011 British DPM camouflage was not introduced into the Army until 1970, when it appeared on the existing 1960-pattern combat smock and trousers.....this combat suit was replaced during 1971 by the improved 1968 pattern combat suit comprising smock, liner, trousers, hood and cap..... There are many manufacturers who produced the DPM combat smock and trousers....James Smith & Co of Derby were one of the larger manufacturers, alongside Cookson & Clegg Ltd. Other manufacturers include H E Textiles Ltd, Clayton St.Mill, H Lotery & Co Ltd, Dashmore Clothing Ltd, Wm Brownlee Ltd, Jeltek Weatherguard Ltd, Compton Webb Ltd, Supercraft Garments Ltd, Beaver of Bolton Ltd, etc, to name but a few....... Thanks. I wonder, however, if the 1960 pattern that was introduced in 1970 was made by anyone other than James Smith. The 68 pattern was certainly made by a whole host of suppliers but I have not seen this for the 60 pattern DPM... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I have a few 1960 pattern DPM smocks and trousers.....a study of all garments reveal only two manufacturers for this pattern in DPM.......James Smith & Co and Cookson & Clegg Ltd.....plus, only two contract numbers....... The 1960 pattern suit in DPM was introduced during early-1970 following the decision to introduce DPM camouflage throughout the British Army....it is thought that the existing olive drab combat suit then in production was manufactured in DPM to get production going underway without the need to change specifications, design, etc......the DPM suit, apart from the actual cammo fabric, is identical to the green version so the changeover would have been simple for manufacturers to adopt....James Smith and Cookson & Clegg were large volume manufacturers so would have had little difficulty in incorporating such changes in production.... The 1968 pattern suit was undergoing development and field trials up to 1970, but the decision to adopt DPM was made prior to the new suit being approved for service....hence the interim DPM 1960 pattern.....the 1968 pattern suit began to appear during 1971, therefore production of the DPM 1960 pattern suit lasted for probably a little over one year only....... The DPM 1960 pattern suit was used for troop trials and the initial issue of DPM clothing, and remained on issue until stocks were exhausted.....a mate of mine was actually issued with a new DPM 1960 pattern Size 9 smock during 1984...although he was a bit of an outsize individual to start with... No 1960 pattern DPM hood or combat cap were issued to accompany the smock and trousers.....indeed, the green 1960 pattern smock used the 1953 pattern olive drab hood and this continued to be used on the 1960 pattern DPM smock until issue of the 1968 pattern DPM hood (and cap) during 1972..... "1966 pattern" DPM....a myth.....I have much original documentation charting the introduction of DPM clothing into the British Army...and we are looking no earlier than 1970 (with the exception of some rare trial garments made during the 1960's)..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted April 26, 2011 Author Share Posted April 26, 2011 Great - thanks. You are a mine of information! I always wondered if there was a 1960 DPM issue hood. Now I know. By the way if you know of any 1953 hoods I am looking for a few for my 1960 pattern smocks! If you have them I would love to see a few pictures of the Cookson and Clegg 1960 pattern DPM labels.... Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 I will see what I can come up with.....I may be able to acquire some 1953 pattern hoods... As for the Cookson & Clegg labelling, again, I will see if I can get some images of the garments in my stash....interestingly, on the Cookson-produced smocks, the sizing and instruction labels are both fitted at the lower-right inner of the smock, rather than the former being at the rear of the collar..... There are several versions of the old olive drab smocks and trousers...... The original pattern smock introduced during 1951 was fully lined, but in 1962 (on the 1960 pattern) the lining was reduced to mid-waist level....in the mid-1960's the smock lining was changed from gaberdine to poplin and the sleeve design altered for an improved fit (the type with the oval-shape elbow patches).......as for the trousers, you have the 1951 type (with button flap over the fly), the 1953 modified type (losing the flap) and the 1953 pattern unlined variety, before going on to the lined 1960 pattern introduced during 1962 ! The story goes on in far more boring detail.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted April 26, 2011 Author Share Posted April 26, 2011 I will see what I can come up with.....I may be able to acquire some 1953 pattern hoods... That would be much appreciated - thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted April 26, 2011 Author Share Posted April 26, 2011 The story goes on in far more boring detail.... Which I for one would like to hear about... the knowledge of folks on this forum is mind boggling so you will always find someone interested! (ie me) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Point taken :-D ! My good lady is often surprised at how much I seem to know about the most obscure things yet nothing important in her mind ........ I've only just joined the HMVF Forum.....reading a few posts made me realise that I had the answers to a number of questions..... British post-war combat clothing is a bit of an underrated subject.....if you want to know about German WW2 helmets or Jeeps, there's a ton of info out there but for Brit clothing comparatively little, much of which is available being full of errors and inaccuracies..... I've been collecting the stuff since handing my own gear in during 1985...guess that's what sparked me off....since then, I've been acquiring loads of official info, original items, photos, etc....and it's rather surprising just what you discover along the way..... I'm intending to put all this info into publication, hopefully next year, full of text, facts and photos of original items.....everything is based on sound research and evidence so hopefully, when released, the record will be a little clearer at long last......the book is already well underway with text and photos rapidly accumulating..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted April 26, 2011 Author Share Posted April 26, 2011 My area of interest in post war British battledress so you have a willing audience....! I doubt it but if there is anything I can help with...just ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 One area of research that has so far eluded me, are the "wool pile" fleece liners used under combat clothing during the Korean War.....trousers in this fabric existed, but not sure about the top half....? Ever seen anything like this ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted April 27, 2011 Author Share Posted April 27, 2011 Yes I have. It was some time ago and I cannot remember exactly where I saw it but having not seen anything like it previously I doubted it's authenticity. IIRC it looked like a wool version of the 1951 US parka liner.... On a slightly different subject I have a couple of examples of the pre 1953 'Parka Middle Without Hood'. Labelled 'Parka Middle' and usually dated 1951 - it has no upper chest pockets, is made from a softer cotton material and has a permanently attached hood. Very interesting to see how this garment was then developed into the 1953 pattern... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I too have a few of examples of the British Korean War Middle Parka, including two brand new examples in a size 1 and a size 9 (massive !)......the item was still in use right up to the late-1970's.... I haven't yet established exactly why the two patterns of parka exist but it's on my list of things to research..... Rumour is that a camouflage version was also produced. Never seen one, although a few years ago now I did briefly own a cammo British experimental parka that was lighter in weight than the Korean model and that pulled on over the head.....the cammo was similar in colour to the WW2 cammo windproofs, but more "splodgy" in design than "brushstrokes"...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted April 27, 2011 Author Share Posted April 27, 2011 I too have a few of examples of the British Korean War Middle Parka, including two brand new examples in a size 1 and a size 9 (massive !)...... Brand new in size 9. That is rare condition wise nevermind the size. I have a couple in size 9 used and a couple of new hoods. Even in size 9 I find the arms maddeningly short! I would like to track down a size 9 1951 pattern 'Parka Middle'... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 These parkas were still on issue during the late 1970's, and I wouldn't mind betting that a few remained in use into the 1980's.......the things were never personal issue, and some units who held the items in pool stocks never actually issued certain sizes as the individuals with those measurements weren't on strength ! Jason - email me at sjmwdbikemad@aol.com regards Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 Steve - any chance you could dig out that Cookson and Clegg 1960 DPM pattern smock contract number from the label? I know I need to get back to you on the lined (or not!) 1952 pattern trousers however, rather embarrassingly I am not sure where I have put them:red: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Contract 28791 in a Size 1 Cookson & Clegg 60 pattern DPM smock......:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted July 16, 2011 Author Share Posted July 16, 2011 Contract 28791 in a Size 1 Cookson & Clegg 60 pattern DPM smock......:-) Hmm - interesting. Here is a link to a 60DPM label over on Jon's Forces 80 site (hope you do not mind Jon!). It clearly shows a different contract number. Maybe a couple of different contract runs for Cookson & Clegg??? http://www.forces80.com/images/label66smock.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer nut Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I will double check that thats the right label. With so many pics to hand sometimes I get confused. Butthe NSN matches some reference I have. I was told once that someone got a '66 issued in the late 1980's? Ta Jon ps. No I dont mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 I was told once that someone got a '66 issued in the late 1980's? This doesn't surprise me Jon - I saw a 60 pattern dpm with exactly the same contract number as yours that was mint condition - I thought it may be a copy but after close inspection I was convinced it was a genuine 60 dpm and must have been a very, very late manufacture. Any thoughts on when manufacture ceased? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer nut Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 PPs. You going to Belters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 PPs. You going to Belters Would love to however I am running short of 'militaria' credits (she used to call it 'camo porn') so will have to see what I can do... How about you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 This doesn't surprise me Jon - I saw a 60 pattern dpm with exactly the same contract number as yours that was mint condition - I thought it may be a copy but after close inspection I was convinced it was a genuine 60 dpm and must have been a very, very late manufacture. Any thoughts on when manufacture ceased? 68 pattern DPM first commenced issue during 1971.....so I guess that the James Smith & Cookson contracts ran from 1970 into 1971 when the production lines switched over to the new pattern.......meantime, other manufacturers likely had secured contracts for 68 pattern DPM so commenced production of these garments during 1971 but possibly before Smith & Cookson had completed their extant 60-pattern DPM contracts...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer nut Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Would love to however I am running short of 'militaria' credits (she used to call it 'camo porn') so will have to see what I can do... How about you? Yes we will bether, flyng the flag as usual Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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