ajmac Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 (edited) I was always under the impression that the names that we know allied armour by were wartime designations, following on from the British way of naming the M4 the Sherman, the M3 the Grant etc.. But what about all the other names that are in use today? Off the top of my head, the Firefly name for the Sherman 'c' versions doesn't appear in any wartime documents, the thought being that it is a postwar invention, like wolverine and Achilles for the two versions of the M10. This has been mentioned before on here, but what wasn't clear was who 'invented' these postwar names, was it the Military or some authors? Edited March 15, 2011 by ajmac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 (edited) The term Firefly was in the military lexicon prior to D. Day and as evidence richard harley -who reseaches AFVs has found evidence in War diaries of 93rd and 21st anti tank regt RA using M10C at Normandy called these 17pdr armed vehicles Fireflies. So considering that most units having awareness of the 17pdr armed tank by attending conversions courses at Bovington and limited firing training at the long ranges such as Kirkcudbright during the spring of 1944, the term could only be in general military use at that time. 17pdr armed tanks were secret from the public until well into the normandy campaign, to the extent that photos of 17pdr tanks were either cut from build up photos or their turrets were traversed away when cameras were around- a couple tanks were actually caught in the process of traversing. The terms Achillies and Archer (M10c and 17pdr Valentine) were coined at the directorate of tank design (MVEE Chertsey) in february march 1945 and these terms were picked up by researchers when limited documentation was released post WW2. Edited March 15, 2011 by steveo578 addition in italics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajmac Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 The term Firefly was in the military lexicon prior to D. Day and as evidence richard harley -who reseaches AFVs has found evidence in War diaries of 93rd and 21st anti tank regt RA using M10C at Normandy called these 17pdr armed vehicles Fireflies. Yes, I remember reading that. Apparently it makes searching through the war diaries for info on Sherman 'c' rather difficult as a 17 Pdr equiped tracked vehicles were often termed the same back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) ajmac Yes, I remember reading that. Yes, i remember sending you a document on this -sometime ago.Apparently it makes searching through the war diaries for info on Sherman 'c' rather difficult as a 17 Pdr equiped tracked vehicles were often termed the same back then. it's not that much of a problem -if it was a sherman or cromwell Rgt then the support weapon will be either a sherman or in rare cases such as 15/19RH or Czech AB a Challenger, the only Rgt/Bats. supported by 17pdr m10c as an intergral component would be Churchill equiped -although a/t rgts. did provide a divisional or corps support. Steve Edited March 16, 2011 by steveo578 clarification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajmac Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 Yes, i remember sending you a document on this -sometime ago Also mentioned in Mark Haywards Sherman Firefly book isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 ajmacAlso mentioned in Mark Haywards Sherman Firefly book quite possible - Dick Harley is mentioned in the acknowledgements. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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