Saladin turret details

[RecyMech]

Morning all,

We`re now working on details of the 1/24th Saladin model & have hit a couple of minor detail queries......can anyone help please;-

 

1) Is the commanders seat just a quarter round shape rather than half round?. The pictures I have are of a pretty tatty seat covering that suggest the outside edge is curved to match the turret ring, the forward edge is square cut (where the knees would be) & the inside edge (nearest the gun) comes out no further than the support bracket underneath it. Does this sound right ?? I have plenty of good pics of the seat post & support brackets...it's just the seat squab itself that is in question.

 

2) Would anyone have a piccy of the breach block itself ? I have pictures of the open breach & its slides but of course the gun is decommisioned & there is no sliding block present. Presumably there would be a lever mechanism somewhere on the gunners side of the breach also to lift/lower the breach block ?

 

Any help, pics, suggestions, greatly appreciated fellas

 

Cheers........Howard @ KFS

[AlienFTM]

Morning all,

We`re now working on details of the 1/24th Saladin model & have hit a couple of minor detail queries......can anyone help please;-

 

1) Is the commanders seat just a quarter round shape rather than half round?. The pictures I have are of a pretty tatty seat covering that suggest the outside edge is curved to match the turret ring, the forward edge is square cut (where the knees would be) & the inside edge (nearest the gun) comes out no further than the support bracket underneath it. Does this sound right ?? I have plenty of good pics of the seat post & support brackets...it's just the seat squab itself that is in question.

 

2) Would anyone have a piccy of the breach block itself ? I have pictures of the open breach & its slides but of course the gun is decommisioned & there is no sliding block present. Presumably there would be a lever mechanism somewhere on the gunners side of the breach also to lift/lower the breach block ?

 

Any help, pics, suggestions, greatly appreciated fellas

 

Cheers........Howard @ KFS

 

The only time I ever sat in a Saladin was after our OC Training Wing (who was a legend and I believe may once have been a member of this forum) had "acquired" a Saladin which we understood was to become a gate guardian. It sat on the back square for ages then disappeared again. While it was there I was instructed to get inside it and womble a piece of kit (I forget now what it was, but I did notice that the gun bore a strong resemblance to the 76mm L23A1 of the Scorpion, which it would because the latter owed a lot to the former).

 

All I can add to this is that:

 

1. I understand that Scorpion gunner and commander sat on opposite sides of the turret from those in Saladin. (Scorpion was built for BAOR whereas Saladin was just built. It made sense to have the commander on the off-side of the vehicle so that he could help the driver look round traffic. So Scorpion commander sat on the left - off side in BAOR - while Saladin commander sat on the right - off side in the UK.)

 

2. In Scorpion, the role of loader was performed by the commander so that the gunner could concentrate on keeping the gun on the target. I cannot imagine Saladin being different, so that the breech-opening lever ought to be on the commander's, not the gunner's side.

 

Note that the 76 (in Scorpion at least) was quick-firing. After the first round is fired, the recoil causes the breech to open automatically and spit the empty case into the bin below, ready for the commander (whose drills would have him pick the next round out of the ready-rounds bin and sit it on his knee ready to load) to slam the next one in. The round slams into the breech, the breech closes on it, the commander "makes" the make-safe lever (which he will have broken to make the gun safe while he reloads) and the commander shouts "LOADED" so that the gunner can continue his action.

 

So the breech-opening lever is only necessary to open the breech the first time and for stripping and assembling.

 

Unfortunately for Scorpion, the gas that activates the breech opening is largely carbon monoxide, and that's why H&S cut down Scorpion in its prime (and now it is exactly what the troops need in the sandpit to lob a medium-sized lump of HE into a compound a mile away RIGHT NOW, not in two minutes' time after going through a fire mission or 15 minutes' time when they have got an F/A18 up in the air).

 

It wasn't designated FV101 CVR(T) FS (for "Fire Support") for nothing.

[fv1609]

 

 

 

[RecyMech]

Quote;-

2. In Scorpion, the role of loader was performed by the commander so that the gunner could concentrate on keeping the gun on the target. I cannot imagine Saladin being different, so that the breech-opening lever ought to be on the commander's, not the gunner's side.

 

Ahhh, interesting reading, thanks Alien, put like that it makes perfect sense...can anyone confirm the above for Saladin ?. This might also have some bearing on the multitude of empty bolt holes & bits of loose linkages apparent in the photographs on the commanders (right side) of the gun.

 

Therefore if the two (Saladin/Scorpion) are quite similar (albeit reversed) I might be able to get closer to understanding the missing bits if anyone has pics of said Scorpion breech & lever(s).

 

Anyone pleeeease ?:help:

 

Cheers........H

[RecyMech]

Blimey, Clive was hard at it posting the very info while I was typing that last reply.

 

Clive, you are a star, a scholar & a gent !!:thanx::banana:

 

Best regs. Howard.

[fv1609]

Note that the commander's seat seems to change. Pic 1 is for a Mk 2 from the 1959 ISPL & pic 2 is from a Mk 1 1955 UHB. There doesn't seem to be a pic of the commander's seat in the Mk 2 1958 UHB.

[AlienFTM]

Blimey, Clive was hard at it posting the very info while I was typing that last reply.

 

Clive, you are a star, a scholar & a gent !!:thanx::banana:

 

Best regs. Howard.

 

Item 21 on page S2 looks like the Breech Mechanism Lever (BML: the TLA finally came back to mind).

Edited September 23, 2010 by AlienFTM
typo

[AlienFTM]

Clive, you are a star, a scholar & a gent !!

Don't you mean a gentleman, a scholar and an acrobat?

 

http://www.metrolyrics.com/the-pink-panther-theme-lyrics-henry-mancini.html

[RecyMech]

Interestingly...item 2 on Fig 5 (the early vehicle) shows the left hand seat as the 'loaders seat'. Which means (unless it's a misprint) that the gunner loads & fires while the commander takes it easy in the right hand seat.

 

Reckon they must have played around with with 'who does what tasks' till they settled on a workable solution maybe ? "Lets try, you put the pointy thing in the hole & I'll pull the trigger"

 

Also reckon Clive is more 'librarian' than 'acrobat'....he has a knack of finding the info you need almost instantly. Good man :cool2:

 

H.

[Bran D]

I have just looked at my copy of The technique of shooting from AFV's part 4 the application of fire from Saladin, dated 1967 Army code 70406.

In this it states "Having identified the target the commander will estimate the range to it and give a fire order, simultaneously loading the gun." Indeed the breech loading lever is on the commanders side (right side).

I can take some photos over the weekend, if you want any specific parts photographing let me know.

If you are local to Milton Keynes come over to John Marchants, we will be having a play this weekend, and my Saladin is there.

[RecyMech]

Hi Bran,

If that publications is dated 67, then it must be referring to Mk2, which all ties in with the above posts nicely. Just curious that the left seat is referred to as the "loaders seat" on early vehicles.

 

But anyway, that is all by the by. Gunner on the left & commander / loader on the right is accepted.

 

Now....pictures :cool2::cool2: always worth viewing, can never have too many pictures....main question though is;- Is you breech & related levers & other gubbins etc up the right side more complete than the one I photographed belonging to Andy Jeffrey in Derby ?? (cheers again Andy:kiss:)

 

Sadly can't make MK this w/e....dog having a bladder operation in the morning (£££) so dare not be away this w/e. But any pics you can take are worth a mint, so yes please, anything of the breech & around the breech is dead useful. (howard@kitformservices.fsnet.co.uk)

 

Ta very much

Howard.

[vor]

These any help.

[andyroo]

 

Now....pictures :cool2::cool2: always worth viewing, can never have too many pictures....main question though is;- Is you breech & related levers & other gubbins etc up the right side more complete than the one I photographed belonging to Andy Jeffrey in Derby ?? (cheers again Andy:kiss:)

 

 

Howard,

I now have all the parts for the breech block if you want to measure them up sometime. I still have not got around to fitting them in. Or I could photo and email them for you.

[RecyMech]

VOR

"These any help."

 

You're not kidding they are !!! :cool2: these show all the 'right side' bits that are missing from the one I photographed & where they belong. The bits of the puzzle are falling into place now.

Nice one mate those are a BIG help :thanx:

 

Andyroo

Let me get these pics above to the pattern maker, see what he thinks. We might just have enough now but failing that I'll definately take you up on the offer of pics of various bits.

 

Superb work gents one & all. I knew I was coming to the right place.

 

Howard.

PS.

For those who helped out on various Bedford MK queries a few weeks back, the test builds of said job are now underway. Ta for you help again also.

[Bran D]

Managed to take loads of pictures of the turret interior yesterday. I will zip them up and email them directly if you like. Do you have an individual download size limit on your email as they will be quite a large size?

[RecyMech]

Hi Brad,

Ahhh, another star is what you are :cool2:.

 

Dont think there is a problem with file sizes, so just go for it please.

 

Cheers much in advance.

 

Howard.:banana::banana::thanx:

[RecyMech]

BIG public thankyou to both VOR (for the above pics) & Bran D for a monster set of detail shots just received by e mail of the turret interior.

 

Great work fellas,...your pictures are worth a bazillion words.:drive:

 

very best regards.

Howard @ KFS:D:D:D:thanx::thumbsup: