How do I find out the history of a vehicle?

[ACH]

How do I go about finding out the history of my vehicle, which is an 1957 Bedford RL ex-AFS.

[antarmike]

Being ex AFS it is a civilian not a military vehicle, therefore I assume that non of the museums that hold records cards for ex Military vehicles will be able to help. (RLC Museum, tank Museum, REME M<useum etc)

 

The simple answer is to write to DVLA.. As the new registered owner they will, on request, send you a list of all previous owners who notified them, or their predecessors, upon change of ownership. This vehicle will always have been civilian registered , so you should be able to trace ownership, if not were it was kept and what it did. They should provide photocopies of all past V5 registration documents, this will give owners address, and the colour of the vehicle at the time, but not much more.

 

Try asking this question on the Military Fire engine thread, this isn't a military fire engine, but a fire engine affectianado might be able to point you towards AFS records.

Edited September 23, 2009 by antarmike

[croc]

Details from "The Green Machine" by Barry Hollis and John Thompson.

SXF 284 HL B4 HOFSTC Also used as a GP. At central motor auctions 3/89.

B4 indicates Bedford RL. HL indicates that it was used as a Hose Layer, but also used as a GP means General Purpose.

HOFSTC (also from Green Machine)

"Although not a fire brigade as such the Home Office Fire Service Technical Centres at Moreton in Marsh and Washington Hall, Lancs., had an extensive fleet made up into three mobile fire columns (MFC) in order to train full time, retained, AFS and other service personnel. The Centre's also trained RAF officers and men for the same purpose. The HOFSTC also had, in conjunction with the Territorial Army, the Army Home Defence Centre (AHDC), Devizes, to which a number of vehicles were attached."

 

So although the Auxiliary Fire Service, along with the Civil Defence Corps and Police Mobile Column, were under Home Office rather than MOD control the main operators were military personel. It makes it as "military" as a Green Goddess, but just how "military" that is, is debateable.

[antarmike]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxiliary_Fire_Service

 

Quoted from this web page

"The AFS has never had any connection whatever with any of the British Armed Forces. It is a pure coincidence that the Government used Army personnel to man and operate fire appliances during the Firemen's strikes. "

 

The AFS like the Civil Defence Corps was a "civilian volunteer organisation "

 

As far as I am aware AFS vehicles belonging to the reformed (1949) service were crewed by volunteer civilian crews.

 

The only occasions the AFS vehicles were manned by members of the Armed forces was to provide cover during the Firemens strikes. (the governments of the times not being prepared to ask civilians to become Scabs, but quite happy for the Military to break the strike).

 

At all other times before and after the strikes, (almost 19 years) the appliances were crewed by the Civilian volunteers. One of the concerns of using military crews to provide cover for National Fire Service who were out on strike, was that the Military crews were not familiar with or trained to use the AFS vehicles. I do not think it at all accurate to say that the main users of the AFS vehicles were the military, this is simply not true.

Edited September 23, 2009 by antarmike

[croc]

I won't pretend to be an expert on the subject, but going by what I have read previously the Wiki page is lacking.

My understanding is that in the event of WW3 kicking off "Mobile Fire Columns" would be formed using AFS equipment. The main role of the MFC was not to be firefighting but providing an ability to pump water around the country to where it was needed. Apparantly the MFC concept was tested with 600 volunteers from Army and RAF. The government then realised that for the concept to work it would have to draw on the forces. The "civilians" that were trained up were reservists following their 2 years National Service. The begining of the end seems to have been the end of National Service, although the TA did some training with the equipment (try telling them they are not part of the forces)

Thankfully WW3 never happened and the majority of Home Office stock spent its ife in stores.

[antarmike]

As I understand it the Green Goddess' and other AFS vehicles were used exclusively by AFS personnel until disbanded in 1968, and that the AFS vehicles were then mothballed. They were twice put back into use to cover the Firemans strikes, during 1977 and 2002.

 

The Green Goddess' were also used on occassions to move water during drought and Flood.

 

If this Bedford was released/ sold off before 1977, I doubt whether the Armed forces would have used it. (Well I doubt they used it anyway, since it is not an appliance or pump)

[antarmike]

But regardless of whether an Army crew ever used it, it was Civilian registered, civilian owned and civilian crewed and civilian operated for the major part of its life, and to my mind that makes it a civilian vehicle.

Edited September 23, 2009 by antarmike

[Marmite!!]

As I understand it the Green Goddess' and other AFS vehicles were used exclusively by AFS personnel

 

 

I thought the RAF used GG's too or was that just for the strikes:confused:

Edited September 23, 2009 by Marmite!!

[antarmike]

I don't know, Its not my strongest subject. Maybe the RAF personnel did use the GG's, but if they did use Geeen Goddesses, that is not the same as them using Hose layers, bikini units and the like.

There may be some connection with the Goddess and the military, but I am unaware of a close link with the Hose Layer and the military, which is why I question calling a hose layer of the AFS a military vehicle.

Edited September 23, 2009 by antarmike

[antarmike]

http://www.civildefenceassociation.org.uk/HistCDWebA5V5.pdf

 

This document suggests that alongside the AFS Mobile Fire Column there was military assistance from the "Mobile Defence Corps" This consisted of 48 Battalions, of which 12 were "in Support of" the AFS Mobile Fire Column. They were trained to work alongside the AFS.

 

It is interesting to note that when reformed in 1949, it was specifically laid down that the AFS was only to "train and exercise" The AFS was only to be called out to work alongside the National Fire Service, "in time of war" They had no peacetime role.

 

If the AFS never "used" their equipment, because there never was a third world war, then likewise the Army personnel trained, and carried out exercises with the AFS, but never actually "used" the equipment.

Edited September 23, 2009 by antarmike

[ACH]

Cheers for the info Croc.

 

I will contact the DVLA as Mike suggests.

 

So you lot aren't going to get upset because I'm not putting it back to original - excellent!

 

But if you don't mind, even though it's not apparently a Military vehicle you lot are very helpful and I would like to stay on the forum.

 

Cheers

Adam

[ted angus]

Mike , Croc et al. I did a fair amount of work for John & Barry during the research for The Green Machine. Since then my research has continued.

 

The reconstituted AFS in 1948/9 had the same remitt as its 1938 forefather; i.e. to augment the local authority brigades in time of war or other national disaster, in the event of war the fire service along with the AFS contingents would again become Nationalised and would be referred to as the Emergency Fire Service. ex NFS appliances put into store after WW2 were issued to brigades to facilitate training of their AFS contingent.

At the same time a new range of pumping appliances and support vehicles were designed and without too much delay put into production. ALL these actions were by the Home Office. Recruitment to the AFS was very unsatisfactory and initiatives were considered to overcome the problem; almost concurrently it was recognised that fire service units would need to be moved away from target areas to give them any chance of survival after a nuclear attack. The mobile column concept had been developed in WW2 and it was decided that apart from an small element of the fire service remaining at home stations to provide home cover then all other assetts including all the not required for home cover red appliances would be dispersed to safe areas. Using vehicles held in regional Home and Scottish Office stores self sufficient mobile columns would be formed. . please note the specialist red appliances such as foam tenders , turntable ladders etc would not actually be part of a column but would be co located with them at dispersed locations as regional assetts. These locations were earmarked in each home defence region and were known as "mounting bases" The majority of mounting bases were non operational RAF bases. At the request of the Home Office the RAF assumed responsible for feeding and rationing all personel at these bases. In addition, pumping appliances surplus to the needs of the mobile columns would be formed into "Light Columns" of 5 , 10 or 15 pump companies manned by any availible personnel. Light columns were not self sufficient, and would need feeding by the mounting base and would receive fuel from secure stock near to the base. .

 

A Home Office Fire Service Tactical Training Centre was established at and co located with, the Surrey Brigade HQ at Riegate, staffed by fire service volunteers from across the UK to develop the concept of operations for mobile columns and to test and develop the designs of the specialist AFS vehicles before mass production commenced.

 

Returning to the manpower ; The manpower situation for both the CD & AFS was to be solved by earmarking Army & RAF reservists (who would not be required for military service in their previous national service branch or trade if war was declared), as manpower for both the mobile columns of the "AFS" and a Mobile Defence Corps that would augment the rescue and ambulance sections of CD. The MDC was very short lived and during its life seemed to concentrate on rescue & ambulance duties although on paper it was to man 12 fire columns. .

 

To this end, the RAF bases at Washington Hall and Moreton in Marsh became training bases to train RAF national servicemen in all aspects of mobile column operations using the AFS appliances, not just the operation of the Goddesses but everything, it was envisaged that the majority of complete columns would be almost solely RAF manned but with its establishment including a small number of fire service officers. The courses undertaken by RAF national servicemen in mobile column operations prior to discharge lasted up to 6 months per man

 

Each home defence region would be under the " command of the Regional Commissioner" who would be a government minister. On his staff would be the Regional Fire Service Commander. All Fire fighting assetts both civilian or RAF manned would be under his command, This Fire Commander would have been the Chief Fire Officer of a county within that region . So although the majority of fire fighting personel would have been RAF they would have been under civilian command.

 

With the development of the mobile column concepts production of AFS appliances shifted from the Bedford S 4x2 chassis to the RL 4x4 plus a number on the Commer Q4 4x4. 90% of AFS appliances never left their regional Home Office and Scottish Office stores. Many remained in primer until the mid 1960s and many of the 4x4 GGs never received AFS markings.

So : although the AFS was a civilian organisation raised and funded by the Home Office had we gone to war the organisation would have been the Emergency Fire Service and it would have been mainly RAF manned, by personel trained on all AFS vehicles; Bikinis line laying etc etc. Had it gone to war it would have been under the command of the civilian regional commisioner via the regional fire commander.

 

Once national service ended in 1963 a new manpower plan was devised and training of TA units in emergency firefighting and CD rescue and ambulance duties commenced.

 

Up to 1968 the majority of "AFS" appliances never left their respective storage depots, hence the low milages when disposed of. Consequently they were in reality never used by anyone. However we must remember that at any time local authority brigade could borrow Home Office appliances to meet certain needs, in 1976 500 were loaned out due to the massive increase in fire from the near drought. In the 1980s and early 1990s brigades borrowed large numbers in response to floods.

Unfortunately most of our recollections are of seeing them with military crews during the many disputse that have taken place since 1976 including the national ones in 1977/8 and 2002/3.

 

Ted

[Artifficer]

Regarding Green Goddess Bedfords, a friend regularly displays his Bedford RL GG which saw service at RAF Bengazi in Lybia hence its nickname "The Bengazi Bar" it was never used by the AFS but issued direct to RAF. On the question of other users of GG, Surrey Fire & Rescue Service used GG's as stopgap appliances in the 80's & sprayed them red and striped them with reflective tape & SFRS badges & signs. They where fitted for radio, two tone horns & beacons in SFRS workshops in Reigate, I think the Transport Officer was H R Day ex WO1 Artifficer Sergent Major REME, more info should be available from SFRS HQ Reigate or Fire Brigades of Surrey Musuem that might still be in the HQ location.

Regards

Artifficer

Ex REME

EX SFRS Workshops