nz2

The ten stud wheels limit the number of models into the latter 1920's early 30's. Then with no front brakes that brings back the date to the 20's. The backing plates could have been removed if used as a trailer axle. The cast name on the bearing caps points again to late 20's as latter had more conical caps. A search through photos has brought up a number of ten stud pattern wheels, for the Trusty and Sturdy, and related type models some with flat bearing caps, but combining that to the named caps reduces to probably a JJ. The JC model updating the JJ has rounded caps. Doug

On reflection, I may be wrong. Perhaps what I read as "Made in England "was similar to that stamped on your chassis. Rust, dirt and generally a poor condition of objects located in the field does not help. Trouble is the particular chassis I'm refering to in NZ is still to be transported home, lying over 3 hours away, so I can't run out and clean down the dumb irons to confirm one way or the other. Hopefully this summer will see it moved. Doug

Reading upside down letters as numerals. We all get confussed, muddled and lead astray at times. The layout of that stamping is a futher variation on what I have seen in my searches. Never before has there been stamped the word "engine" and its number, and like wise the word "chassis" as a single word. I have seen the wording "Made in England" and the chassis number, but that is rare, even to find a chassis number stamped by the dumb irons is unusual. As if exported chassis' were not stamped. In this case the pattern would suggest a a lack of uniformaty from the production line, or was this part of a latter addition, considering the way how the word engine is squashed up. I have some Thornycroft build sheets of the WW1 period, and will search through the records box. Otherwise a call to Beaulieu or The Hampshire Museum service for a copy of the register page. Simon of The Thorncroft Register may also have a copy of that period. Doug

Your images of the vegetation growth and subsequent removal is a problem we also have here in NZ. A trip through the depositary can become like a " voyage of discovery". I've been trying to read the stamped chassis number on dumb iron with no success. Can you advise me of the number. Doug

Another of the Looney brigade.. welcome! In thinking of your achievement, trying to do the same in New Zealand would lead to a whole round of administration problems with getting the vehicle back on the road. The chassis being a recent unit is the basis of dating and legislative changes. A change in body style (for non vintage vehicles) would need to be inspected and probably would not comply as the chassis date would require the vehicle to have seat belts, and seats with approved mounting points, etc, along with a multitude of similar points to stumble on. It is these little bits that would otherwise detract from the overall finish. Do you have the same problem and how do you get around such issues? Doug

To b414, Your reconstruction of this Fordson is admirable, considering it done outside,in all weathers and in full public view. On that point what was the reaction of neighbours when you brought home the vehicle then began to strip it down? I image there would have been some disapproving comments, however interested to know if this attitude changed as the new body took shape. Did the neighbours show any supporting interest in the project? Doug

The photo in post 28 could be of a Swiss Berna rear wheel. The large hexagonal bearing cap is similar to that shown in a photo of such a truck in Micheal Young's "Book Army Service Corps"(Chapter six photo section.) Rod Dux book, ( The Benzine Lances") refers to Swiss Berna and also to British Berna trucks being in service with the Australian forces. Two Berna are listed as been supplied from Melbourne and being available for shipping to the war as of 1st October 1914. The Berna spokes are curved out towards the rim, a point not overly clear in photograph 28. Doug

Yes the clarity of the image in posting no. 26 makes further identification difficult. The trucks all appear to have dumb iron sections to the chassis and forward spring mounts, so that eliminates a number of makes. Of interest to note the variation in colour ( shade or hue) of the canvas roof sections on the various trucks. Could this be the result of different batches of canvas from different suppliers? Doug

Regards the Garratt's photo. The label on the window gives a clue; agents for Fiat, **** ( Not clear), Karrier and Yorkshire Steam Wagons. It is not the latter, has different front spring mounts to a Karrier so aside from the unreadable it could well be a Fiat. Supporting that is the position of the fuel tank at the rear of the chassis, typical of Fiat. Also the front axle steeped back from the radiator puts it to the period 1912-14. I'll call it a Fiat model 18. Doug

To use the quote from Chain Drive "however i could be completely wrong." My comments regards the photograph being a Thornycroft are to outline the similarities I see, there are differences and points which do not match. It could be, it may not be. While we think of standardization for production, there was variation and modification of design. This appears as be as both improvements and to special order from a client. The Thornycroft build register shows a reference to design changes through a numbering sequence in one column, however there is no supporting paperwork known to remain as plans, illustrating what the changes actually were. This has lead me to assemble up photographs of the parts of such early trucks located, and build up a reference library to assist in identifying bits seen. This variation in design form is not just limited to Thornycroft but to so many of the trucks of the solid rubber tyre era. Along with the photo collection is the accumulation of numbers from chassis and parts to further piece together the riddles. I am interested in the photo of the rear axle showing the small holes in the rim face. Are there any numbers stamped about the lip of the bowl or on a brass plate near the oil filler? Doug

Regards the Milnes-Damiler photograph. I have a bias towards Thornycroft, so naturally my eye started looking for features in common. Besides having 4 wheels on the ground a bonnet etc, the finer features do show some points in common with Thornycroft J of the period 1912-13. There are not a lot of old photos of the time showing side on images, most photos are of the front quarter, The J's of this period do show variations to the design than what was latter to become the War Dept. type. I note from this photo the rear wheels have 8 flat vertical spokes with a backing plate behind the spokes. Thornycroft used a backing plate, have 8 spokes of a similar pattern, with a strengthening section at the back giving a T section. This photo has the back of the spokes in shadow not allowing complete observation.Thornycroft using cast flat spokes went through a numbers of different shapes to the size and shape of the holes between the spokes. The heart shaped holes vary in size as do the smaller holes towards the rim. The front wheels appear to be the same same as a Thornycroft, with the same spoke number and shape. The front springs appear to have hangers on to the front as there is a gap up to the towing hooks. Same as early Thornycroft. The radiator has different side sections more like those of a Leyland. The radiator mount is a round truncheon from the lower tank. the scuttle is flat with no curve where as the Thornycroft has a slight tapered section above, however this section in WD lorries from Thornycroft could be an additional section bolted or riveted on. The bonnet latches and springs are similar as are the spring and mounting points to the chassis holding up the engine mud shield. The rear spring hangers to the front spring as the same while the rear spring have different mounts. Could it be one of the early J series imported into Australia. If we only had a photo of the front of the vehicle, these queries would all be answered. Any way its an interesting way to spend an hour on a freezing winters morning. Doug :-|

A further variation to hook mountings can be found on a Thornycroft as provided by the Australian Army. I have seen a photo showing the mounting bracket as a length of steel about 15 inches long, riveted along and towards the top of the vertical face of the chassis rail, then protruding forward above the curve of the chassis to the springs. The hook from memory was in one piece with the mounting section, ie a blacksmith job. The flat steel section also had been shaped to pass over rivet heads in the chassis rail. This would suggest the hooks were a later addition, the chassis being supplied without them. This could also be inferred the chassis was purchased within Australia at the declaration of war and alterations made in preparation of trucks being dispatched to Egypt. Rod will know more of those events from that particular sequence of time. This gives further evidence as to the thoughts that some trucks left the factory with no towing hooks. I can not locate the image at the moment of this hook form. Doug:)

Regards the hoist. We have a similar one here that had been placed on a Leyland RAF at some time in its working life. The brass plate on the hoist states the manufacturer as The Wood Hydraulic & Body Co, of Detroit. Type DDJR12A patented Dec 28 1915. Guaranteed for loads not exceeding 6 tons. The tipping body and lifting arms are similar to those shown in the photograph. Also have a report of a Leyland being purchased with a hydraulic tipper by the local county in 1921. During a sales demonstration it leaked hydraulic oil with the Mayor receiving a shower of oil. The truck was still purchased by the County Council. Plans are to place the tipping deck and hydraulic hoist on another Leyland chassis here of the early 1920's period, and finish it in the style of the local Council of the time. Meanwhile the 1916 Leyland (the host for the hoist) gets rebuilt back to WW1 style. None of the projects are from the original local truck as they all have been transported in from afar. Doug

Aside from leather being used for these yokes, I have seen industrial conveyor belting fitted. Being a laminated structure the belting would with stand the forces imposed on it. There does also appear to be slight changes in the cast parts of the flexible joints over the period of time of Thornycroft J production. Doug

The image from you tube, showing the destruction of the box led to a number of questions. That box had no means of releasing the air pressure, and was not firmly anchored to the ground. The safety cages I recall were embedded into a concrete base, and constructed of heavy pipe of about 2" diameter, allowing the rapid expulsion of air. Like others have mentioned, to find a tyre firm that will still change split rim wheels is hard, even on this side of the world. The plan is to locate a suitable frame for our own use, and use with care. Doug

Thank you Runflat for the ID. McCurd was not on my list of possibles, however I understand from some reading since, that they did find good support from bus companies. If that photo was taken in NZ then it would be another rarity to add to the list of imported vehicles.I wonder were the second photo of the bare chassis was taken? Robert, do you know if any McCurd's imported into Australia? Marmite's comment appears to be concerned to the vehicles role as a military item. I questioned this myself prior to posting the photo, if it would fit the relevant criteria for the forum. The subsidy scheme of civilian vehicles and the lack of purely military designed vehicles clouds the issue so much for this period of time. The men in uniform showed a military presence, but with no rifles present, I took it the men were on leave. However other story lines could be contrived giving a different perspective. Could it be a mass evacuation of people , lets say a mine had washed up on the beach and the population of the immediate area was being removed to safety. Perhaps Roy with his knowledge on buses and the military could advise us if any McCurd's were used in military maneuvers, may be with Britain. Doug

I have recently purchased this postcard showing a group of four men in uniform in front of a Charabanc. In trying to identify the manufacturer there are a couple of key points; 1. The steering arm is outside of the chassis rail. 2. The spokes on the rear wheel are closer together at the rim than at the hub. On the reverse of the card lists the town as Westcliff- on-Sea. The card is unused so no post mark stamp. Aside from being a commercially available postcard, but a Google search brings up nothing, I have thoughts otherwise as to it being a souvenir card taken as part of an outing, for the passangers to purchase and send off showing their adventures. The body style with the progressively raised edge is another feature I could not find any similar photos of. I will let someone else identify the uniforms and badges. Doug

The compressor and drive pulleys on the back are not recent either. May be into the early 1920's. The whole unit would make an interesting display in itself, and mounted as it is, a greater attraction in my books. So many restorations are finished as an empty truck, with a highly painted or stained deck timbers as if it was never designed to carry a load. To see a vehicle as it would be used in a specialist role is appealing. Doug

On the Leyland towing the aircraft, the wheels are of a spoked pattern rather than the disc design. This would indicate the Leyland was used within Britain ( as per the photos) or it was a subsidy lorry. The body style is not a commercial type, but could have been rebuilt to War Dept. specifications. Interested to see the canvas cover has been cut to fit about the side door on back. Other photos often show the cover extending over the upper section of the door. Doug

The RFC Leylands had a series of metal brackets mounted along the outside of the body to carry the aircraft wings. These fittings pivoted out when required for use. Interesting to note the use of wide straps to hold the wing in position on the lorry. With a fabric wing cover the cloth strap would be more effective than rope and resulting damage. A question arises therefore as to the type of fitting used to link the strap together. Could it be an early form of load binder as used in todays trucking industry? Doug

Anzac Day here. A great deal of coverage on the TV showing services about the country at cenotaphs and memorials, in remembrance of those who participated in so many conflicts. Coverage shows lots of a younger generation in attendance. Some of the TV channels are showing re runs of war documentaries and war movies. No ads on TV and shops closed till this afternoon. A day of pride but also sorrow. Doug

Mike, The L4 engine you have been chasing was used in the very early J model, prior to moving on to the M4 engine. That could well be the type used in my early chassis here. So if it hunt comes off I would be interested in the engine. Also the L4 was used in some of the chain drive models and fitting the chain drive Thornycroft back axle Karl recently brought home. Doug

Over the years Thornycroft produced a series of different wheel patterns for the rear wheels. Between different models and years there are differences in size and slight variation to the size and shape of the holes about the edge of the rim. This is in reference to the spoked J model and I'm excluding the military disc type which in itself has a few variations. Can you measure the rime size in mm, inside of the tyre band. Also have a scratch about on the spokes at the centre hub for any casting marks. Some carry the lettering JAC and a number, referring to Catton's Foundry as suppling parts for Thornycroft and other vehicle manufactures. I have yet to locate any solid listing of casting marks to years of manufacture. That looks like a longer term project of accumulating data on the bits found. There could also be JAC marks on the brake bands. Doug

Further to Mikes query on the model X Thornycroft. This model appears not to have survived well even though it was based on the model J and used the same motor. The gear box it a different shape being a square box to replace the deep v shape of the J. The chassis cross members are different to the J model to mount the different shaped gearbox. This model is rare, my understanding through the Thornycroft Register is there is one complete at Milestones Museum, I have remains of one here in NZ and recently have had confirmed the existence of one restored in Australia. I take it Mikes been out collecting more bits again so perhaps there is another for the list. Doug

There was a similar Dennis chassis and mechanical parts here in NZ up for sale a few years ago.I was told it was exported to the UK. That was originally a fire engine the chassis with dumb irons extending out the front. Does any one know if this unit? Doug