nz2

The wheels are both from Thornycroft, the disc wheels of military origin, and the spoked pattern of factory commercial production. That does not mean this vehicle saw war service, as the disc wheel could be the replacement. It could also be a rebuilt lorry dispatched after the war to Australia with military wheels and the spoked wheel is the replacement. Take your choice!.I will compare the engine number to my records here and may be able to give a year of construction. Doug

The chassis number should stamped on the vertical face of the left hand rail in the area above the axle to the dumb iron. <br> The shortened chassis and conversion to a farm truck happened to a number of such long wheel base trucks , at least here in NZ. It does appear the same occurred in Aus.<br> We have a Dennis here of mid 1920's that was shortened by cutting the tail from the chassis and moving the rear spring hangers to become the forward hangers, while the previous front spring hangers are now at the rear. A wooden deck, bench type seat and it was away working. Plans are to restore this truck in that period of its life; Looking rough, with only a little faded paint, rough sawn timber deck, a sack cushion, bits of fencing wire holding together body section. Just another project for the time line.<br> Doug

Another photograph of a similar chain drive Thornycroft. From the collection of the Australian War Museum showing the loading of an ambulance in 1914 at Melbourne and bound for Egypt. One of a series of vehicles purchased by the Army in Australia, or donated by Australians, these vehicles saw service in Egypt before later being shipped on to Britain. The same photo is on the cover of the book by Rod Dux on the history of Australian Military transport 1901-19. Doug

Brian's truck has a full known history since purchase as new, for the MacRobert's Sweets Company,working around the Melbourne area. It has always been complete, the restoration was straight forward as all parts were there. Unlike the major rebuilds occurring on this section of the HMVforum. The engine is a M2. Built in 1912, it had a centenary party last year. Considered to be the oldest Thornycroft petrol engined lorry in operational condition. Doug

The owner of the Melbourne truck, Brian has sent me a series of photos taken about the underside of his truck, showing the mounting brackets for the springs ands chain drive attachments.This was during a telephone conversation with Brian was on his back under the vehicle and each of us trying to describe the features we were looking at. The unusual point with this drive is the lack of any bolts through the spokes for the drive cog. Instead this is mounted to a plate which then extends over the back of the spokes and becomes bolted to the wheel up from the rim.The axle has quite a gap between the wheel and the spring to accommodate the chain cog. I have this poor quality photo of a similar Thornycroft taken in the overall region were these parts were. The question is, is it the same one? Doug

Finally we have safely at home here parts for another Thornycroft.While Thornycroft steam wagons were used in the Boer War,and in turn became a favoured supplier to the British Army I have yet to find any reference to the forces using light petrol engine Thornycroft trucks in the period before the Great War. Reference is made of Thornycroft participating in Aldershot transport trials but it appears not as routine transport. As a result this type may not be a military vehicle,however I will include it here as a topic of related interest. A few years ago my son Karl came across an old farm trailer in the SouthernHawkes Bay region with solid rubber tyres and cast wheels,then last weekend while in the areahe was able to collect the trailer. Although there may not be much of the original truck,it still represents a significant addition to the range of Thornycroft models we have located here in New Zealand. Aside from the odd historic photo of such chain drive trucks this is the only chain drive Thornycroft parts located in NZ to date. This trailer was built around the rear axle,complete with springs and spring hangers from a Thornycroft type R or S., built about 1908 to 1913. With cast spokes it would appear to have been built latter in the production run with the earlier models having wooden spokes to the wheels. I say Thornycroft as there is no I.D. tag or casting name sayingThornycroft as a maker. The casting of the spoke wheel pattern and thespring hanger mounts match that of a chain drive Thornycroft of 1912 atMelbourne, Australia. Cast on the hub are the letters JAC, indicating the Catton Foundry who castmany parts for Thornycroft, especially on the latter J models. All up my research would indicate it is Thornycroft. A photo has been located showing a similar chain drive Thornycroft at workin the region from where these parts were located, but to date no otherparts to fit this vehicle are known of.In this period of time these models covered the range up to a two ton capacity, with their lighter structure and size becoming so evident as we moved this trailer into storage and passed by a Thornycroft J chassis and wheels.The J wheels simply towered over the chain drive set. The centre illustration of the type shows a wheel pattern the same as what has beenrecovered. Doug

I too looked at this view, but did not consider the chance of an additional wheel being placed beside the truck. Perhaps it could be the trucks own wheel being off for servicing the bronze bush or similar. However upon looking over that part of the image I did notice the bonnet of a truck and took it to be another truck parked slightly ahead and aside with the rest of the truck hidden behind the first. Areas of shadow under the first truck could suggest wheels for a second behind. The size of the panel about the cab seems too long for a conventional bonneted cab, which made me consider the option of the forward control type. In reality we shall never know. Doug

Many thanks to Keith in forwarding a photo with greater clarity and close ups. Beyond the steam wagon, the truck heading away between building does appear to be a forward control type. The position of the front wheel is under the side panel of the door area. Could this be an Autocar ,FWD, Nash Quad, or a Jeffery? As for the two trucks in the front missing the radiators the clarity is not great enough to allow a good identification. The alloy fittings about the scuttle supporting the bonnet point towards a Thornycroft but the wheels don't match. Doug

That is a delightful photo of the lorries. I have been trying to identify the makers of the trucks and the steam wagon, but the definition is not that clear. Are you able to copy the photo again focusing in on the vehicles allowing greater clarity to the image? Thanks Doug

Roy, Your library is again a great wealth of information. The small changes I have noticed between various rear axle housings for J model Thornycroft, I took as being changes in development and casting patterns over the years from the Basingstoke factory. Roy's comments have lead a new twist to this line of inquiry. Some axle housings have differing dates and numbers cast on them, others have none. Others have slight changes in shape. While I have some photos of this detail more images will be needed. Doug

A more traditional type of wheel barrow. From the collection of the National Library of Scotland. Doug

I take it the comment regards the Chinese wheel barrow with a wooden wheel used in moving ammunitions was a safety measure to reduce the explosion risk. This would be handling loaded shells. The use of the wheel barrow by the ASC and the Engineers I thought would have given us far more photos than the few available.

Roy, You have referred to the ASC at St Omer manufacturing parts for Thornycroft that was an improvement over the factory items. Can these items be identified as such by casting marks or similar? I have come across the odd rear axle casting that has slight changes to the norm, and now you have me questioning these pieces. Thanks Doug

Roy, you have stated that well. Further to the point of rebuilds, Leyland rebuilt all the WD lorries they could obtain at the end of the war. Some were discarded as being non repairable, stripped, with the parts being used on other chassis. I understand much the same occurred in France during the war with damaged lorries of all makes being stripped and reused as parts to keep others in operation. As for the Thornycroft in question, the major parts are all Thornycroft, assembled back together as per factory specifications, just like a refurnishing workshop at the end of the war. As a suggestion place a sign at the workshop calling yourselves a "Repair Depot for ASC ". The use of the letters ASC is seen to protect the Army Supply Corps name. Those initials could refer to any group of words. As for chassis and engine sequences being in factory order, I have located a Thornycroft in NZ where according to the records has a chassis number allocated as to be an export to NZ, while the engine in that chassis was meant to be dispatched in a different chassis and exported to India. Life is never simple! Doug

While doing some repair work yesterday on a wheel barrow, I wondered as to the design and type used by support forces during The Great War. I have located photos of hand carts for transporting fodder about horse stables and veterinary sites, but no signs of a wheel barrow.Also photos of sack barrows in use about wharves and whare houses. One of my sons collected up years ago cast iron wheels from different manufacturers as used on wheel barrows of the time. These are of local manufacture, being cast in New Zealand with a wooden frame and box. I assume those used in wartime Europe would be of similar structure. Doug

I was aware of the earlier thread and the theme that followed. I was seeking some information on sizes and allocation of use about the different branches. I realize even these comments could be read in the format of the earlier thread. I have checked again the date is 1918, although the photo shows on a slight angle and it could be seen as a four, which is it not. I assume the same design was used with the horse mounted forces and therefore could well date back many more years prior to WW1. Doug

I have recent purchased this canvas water bucket in good condition. Carries the broad arrow mark and a date of 1918. This will be used as decoration to go with or on the 1916 Leyland. Did these canvas buckets come in different sizes? Their is an image in the emergency services folder showing gear associated with a fire pump, the bucket appears to be about twice the size. Were these canvas buckets used by all sections of the forces. ie Is it correct to be used with a RFC vehicle? Doug

Again Richard your vast library of old publications has shown through. The reference I have included other makers , but as they were different in boiler form, I discarded them from the list. Strakers were not on my list. The Straker certainly has the same rear wheel hub pattern. There is a Straker Squire being re-built here in NZ , this has smaller wheels that the one in question. Doug

I consider the image shown is of a Thornycroft Colonial wagon. From the image can be seen the side of the vertical boiler and boiler feed chute attached to the top of the boiler. The rear wheels are larger than shown in other Thornycroft steamer photos, however options and variations to special order were part and parcel of the day. Thornycroft wagons were used in South Africa during the Boer Wars, and in use by the British Army at home, with ten Thornycroft's being listed as with the ASC. The role of towing and transporting guns appears to be short lived with that being transferred to the use of light steam tractors as per the 1906 Aldershot Trials, with that also later being lost to petrol powered tractor units with overall design similar to the light steam tractors. Doug

The photograph of the heavy subframe is certainly different in size and form. I would suspect it it from an industrial application as the subframe used on the Thornycroft J trucks is considerably lighter. The front cross member as shown is not like that on the J series. The very late J's and KB series using the AB4 engine had a 3 point engine mount system the front mount was in a rubber bush but again considerably smaller that that shown in the photo. The curvature of this mount ( upwards) is the opposite to that of the trucks with the mount being flat on the top. The photo from the Flika account is from the Brunt Collection in Victoria Australia. The crank start mount is attach to the front cross member underside. The alloy seen in the photo is the front of the sump. That truck has a radiator mounting which appears to have a non original top tank and different side mounting points. Unfortunately my photos of that truck show detail about the engine but not the radiator. They do show a series of radiator hoses traversing across the front of the engine to the lower tank on the right hand side. It would appear this radiator is from another vehicle may be a Leyland.Note there is no name on the top tank. It also had no radiator fan nor mount for it. Doug

Welcome. Where abouts in NZ are you? Doug

For the Boer War.

I have spoken with the current owner. Original history is unclear. It could have come to New Zealand after the war as an repatriated item. Due to the length of time in NZ and relevant history to fighting of WW1 there could be a restriction on it being exported through the Movable Cultural Heritage Act. Doug

Robert; Some time back I started a thread on locations of stamped chassis numbers from different vehicles of our period of interest. Could you copy over the photo of this Leyland stamp into that thread. It would be fitting. Doug

Is that a broad arrow stamped in the top right corner of that cross member? I take this is on the Leyland. As for the star and initials I agree it could be an inspection mark. Unusual place to place it upon the rear. In common with this, some steam engine manufacturers ( Traction engines) allowed staff assembling engines to stamp there mark on the horn plates supporting the crank shaft and gearing. Quality assurance and traceability is not new. I have a Thornycroft here ( late J of circa 1924) with a series of stamps on a cross member near the gearbox. I consider it could have been related to a gearbox repair. Doug