steveo578

re old stuff in Iraq some photos of what were probably gateguards in Iraq, could date back to the arming of an independant iraq in 1934. Don't have an attribution or site for these. 18pdr Mk4.jpg 18pdr Mk4.jpg 18pdr mk4 3.jpg 18pdr mk4 4.jpg

You would if you used the right type of bang bang stick or even just a stick

Nice pictures, so how much refurbishment was needed- I saw a picture of the ex Kirkcudbright 17pdr and its a bit sad.

The last gun tank use was in Ireland at the curagh the extremely refurbished Mk4 75 sometimes called a Mk11 Light turret (its debatable whether the Mk9 to 11 either heavy or light turret were ever built), was used for gunnery training until 1970. The Iraqi Churchills were the nucelus of the Iraqi Armoured force when the British left in 1949 they were mostly if not all Mk7 I think there were 12 -enough for a light squadron and HQ, they also had some ex British armoured cars which were probably more use. Some years ago with consulation with an Arabic speaking acquaintance we came to the conclusion that the often published photo of a Churchill Mk7 (below) purporting to be a Jordanian Churchill was in probably an Iraqi Churchill Mk7- the inscription which reads something like "the sword of....." is more in keeping with the Royal Iraq Army rather than Jordanians who as far as I'm aware didin't have Churchills. Steve PostwarChurchill.jpg

In the first instance it is the perogative of the Range Officer of the Training Area,but of course it is more complex and will include consulation with the Training Area commander and a financial determination:cry:, I am sure others can fill in further complex details, I don't do wreck rebuilds -I regard myself as Recce only:). Steve

Must have been along time ago, I know there was a gun line about 1km to the west of linshiels lake in the main Redesdale impact area, but all that remained when I was there was a badly mangled 25pdr traversing base and an artilleryish lump that could have been an arm off a L60 Bofors, elsewhere there was a clutch of 5 bofors L70 set up in the vicinity of the air frame targets, along with a number of thunderbolt launchers. At least one of the L70s was recovered for inclusion in a museum. If I remember correctly the DLI 17pdr came off Warcop but whether it was save before deployment or has been well restored is unknown to me- I was really there to admire their 2pdr A/T gun.

It was not random, without getting too technical, the patch covered an area of the turret armour that was thinned down inside to clear alternative traverse equipment (substitute or limited standard in U.S. terminology) tank production had outrun the production of the prefered traversing equipment built by Oilgear, later production turret casting had the area externally thickened up thus relieving the need for the applique armour. Nothing in sherman production was redundant, if there was a need it was done once un-necessary the production lines dispensed with it. Thanks for the info and photos Steve

I think there were eight BMP 1, M24 Chaffee, Panther, Elefant, Sherman, Centurion, M18 and Comet. I don't if there is any available internet feeds for these programmes I certainly know it not on TV.Blinkx.com.

Good point, forgot about scrap men- I hope if I ignore them they might disappear forever! It would be interesting to see the front and the gun control recess to try to get a aproximate date of manufacture.

There was something in Wheels and Tracks about Le Tourneau stuff mainly aircraft cranes and movers but I am sure the Land trains were mentioned.

The standard army ID could be used "its green and has tracks -its a tank":) Steve

Any photos of the front, there seems to be some junk in the mantlet hole, but does it have an applique patch. As to the question of its use in WW2, Hanno what do you think happened to turrets from ARVs and Barvs and burnt out tanks, the best ones of course would be stored for a while but if for any reason the turret was faulty it would be used as a target. The Pirbright Grant was used for targeting from new as we probably at least one other and I'm sure Adrian mentioned a Sherman V being used as a special test target. What bothers me about this target is the sectioned areas, its a sign of deliberate testing rather than general training which could well mean very late War or even Post War but that's conjecture

Interesting post I wonder which otherwise unemployable graduate son or daughter of the great and the good thought that one up and was no doubt given a nice fat cheque for his or her trouble. If it is a fragile habitat having a lump of rusting steel leaching contaminants from within and pitric acid and other chemical residues from ammunition around is not going to do any good to the environment.

A Mk4 remains a Mk4 even with a 75mm gun, only those built as Mk6 are MK6 and are in the contract number blocks T17**** and T25****. They have the universal cast turret with the same features as Mk5 (95mm How) and some late build Mk4s with 6pdr. These features are revised shape of the casting with enlarged barrel access plate and hole, squared off mantlet apperture. The term Mk6 to describe a cast turreted churchill with 75mm gun is at best a short hand description but is actually sloppy research from the 1960s. Rebuild Mk4 with 75mm could start life as a Mk2, an example is the former Bovington Gateguard now at I of W numbered T251952 (incorrect). It started off as a Mk2 -small turret without the cone bolts on the hull, during one of its rebuilds it had a new cast turret with a 6pdr, then circular cones welded over the screw holes, new suspension, 7inch air outlet and of course a 75mm. The ex Otterburn Mk4 AVRE is similar as was the Feldom Mk4 but it had applique. As an example T31531 a Mk2 called Shipply when it served in 43rd Bt RTR, still numbered T31531 now called Bradford rebuilt with a new turret as a Mk4 (6pdr) without the weld on cones on the hull (see photo in Mr Churchills Tank). It is perfectly possible that the same tank could have morphed into any of the 3 mentioned tanks above (Bovington,OTA or Feldom) or could be the Mk4 hard target found buried on SPTA in 1985- or none of the above. The reason why so many of these early production Churchills survived into the new century is due to the multiple rebuild programmes allowing early tanks to go for rebuild in 1944, many were retained in reserve, training or further development, some may have even back loaded from the battlefield and rebuilt see photo. An ex OTA Churchill Mk4 AVRE, probably placed by towing in the early 1960s and may have been a driver training vehicle, turret locked rearward and hull Besa mount blocked with timber. Note the welded shot damage across the glacis and into the the armour near the Besa mount between the two vertical armour fixing bolts (note the remenant of the 79th AD triangle above the hit). Otterburn Churchill.JPG

They are very cute, but I'm surprised the M5 and M6 HST don't get a look in, I saw a photo in an architecture book of a surplus M6 working with a bulldozer to move a historic house in the USA, it was impressive. I believe some M6 were in British Army Inventory as part of the 240mm Howitzer M1 trains it would be interesting to know their fate.

Yes, same as its old brother the T34 - 50 years in a peat bog and runs.

Could be a good choice- the ex East German T54 in this photo was left on a range for 12 years with the hatches open, there was a tide mark around the fighting compartment from the lake that formed each year. Surprisingly once dried out it was started up (although a new starer had to be fitted from a Czech T54 further down range). It was fortunate in that it was placed in an indirect firing range and although a Milan team attempted to kill it, they fired too close and missed the target. It is now in a private museum. I would think a BMD although nice and compact would be a bit more problematic, unless the tracks were locked in the drive position, I have heard the suspension is a bit fragile. Regarding Russian airborne stuff the ASU 57 looks fun -but is probably a bit fragile too. t54.jpg

It's good to be put right, thanks for the correction, I remember seeing the photos of it firing it main armament but had been told it was o/s in the late 1990s another case of a latrine rumour.:??? have a good New year Steve

yes, it should be a Leyland L60 No4 Mk13A and a Tn12 Mk4 gearbox, unless some-one fitted something else while it was a test vehicle, but I imagine the tests had to do with the turret, radio or sights- its easier moving the turret around on a tank hull rather than anything else -although at the Newcastle BAE plant (formerly Vickers) warrior turrets were moved around on turretless Abbot prototype.

If it is military then its most likely a bomb service truck, it would have insufficient lift clearance for tank engine changing

These are already being discussed in the Shevick thread. In East Africa there was/is a guarded area now belonging to Kenyian Army were many british vehicles including AFVs were left to rot, although I would think anything surviving has been stripped out.

Most WW2 afvs were scrapped either during WW2 or in the 1950s, even those which served in the post war army were scrapped during this period rather than be sent for targeting. Of those that did the majority were rapidly destroyed, ranges such as Shrewburyness Lulworth Warcop the Tank and A/T lines on SPTA fairly rapidly destroyed targets by direct fire or tests, similarly those on Air ranges such as Somercotes (Humber). Those that survived were either off the main target line, in a general firing area or were on special ranges such as Pirbright, some survived because of changes in firing practice, hence one target line on SPTA was relatively untouched until ATWG weapons were developed, as previously 120mm BAT HESH were used on shorter range target areas, hence the Bovington Centaur, Cavalier and the ex Beverley Crusader survived, as did the Otterburn Roman road range Cavalier which was heavily targeted by 17pdr but was probably just beyond the Max range for 120mm BAT. Other targets survived because they were markers (ie showing the aiming limit and therefore not to be directly targeted) such as the Otterburn Churchill 3 and A11 or the range closed and they were forgotten –the ultimate of these would probably the Churchill Mk2 now at Bovington found in a Plantation in Yorkshire. It also has to be remembered that many WW2 tanks were actually Post War service vehicles Comet, Daimler A.C.s, many Churchills and the few recovered M40s were not struck off until the early 1960s. As an example at least one Comet on OTA was not placed on the range until the late 1970s prior to that it was the Comores 75 test vehicle at Chertsey, it was removed in 1995 having being filled with concrete and shot up by 120mm Bat. It is possible that several other Comets were similarly late placements. Again because of changes in Weapons some ranges were cleared of long standing targets such as the Comet and Sherman at Sennybridge and the five WW2 tanks on Feldom, all of which were concrete filled, because of the deployment of the LAW 80 it was decided that concrete filled targets were a safety problem and had to go. Coupled with the on going contraction of the army (and air force) requiring less training areas and targets were required at a time when large numbers of Chieftains became available. Photos Comores 75 prototype cleared 1995 Churchill Mk4 AVRE driven into place in the 1950s at the same time as the Mk3 AVRE now at Bovington, targeted by 25pdr A/T and wrecked by 5.5s ,virtually nothing worth recovering and very difficult to clear due to the bogie ground. Blue Cavalier, positioned distant from most firing points but hit on one side by aircraft cannon on the run in line over Alwinton probably placed in early 1950s removed 2002. Red Cavalier turret note damge caused be 17pdr A/T probably place in the 1950s remained just beyond the Plate targets on a BAT range but was not hit by HESH. 19ZR17.jpg OTA#3-3.jpg cavalier-3.jpg Cavalier2.jpg

No the hull was a standard Mk10 03EB35 the RR engined variant was the Chieftain 900, the turret and hull of Chieftain 900 were de-coupled and the hull 56MS78 went to Lulworth as a target and the 900 turret was fitted to 03EB35 and was used in tests by Marconi and BAE systems.

Burma had some Comets, ferret, dingo and or lynks scout cars, there were a large number of modified soft skin vehicles including MWs and CMPs. Gabon AFAIK no Shermans just A/Cs mostly ex French like Ferret AML60 M8 V150 Panhard M3

You can't:( camo nets don't work and it could cause a divorce -it wouldn't be the first. Steve