steveo578

Depends on what it is being restored as- As an Mk7 AVRE it would require the phough etc, which assuming a wreck could be found on a range (there weren't that many converted) is a possiblity. As a conversion back to a Mk7 the turret front would need reworking as I think the 6.5in mounting required an enlarged apperture. Assuming no further damage was done by vandals the gearbox would be Ok but if the story of the engine being run dry until it failed would certainly require a replacement motor. Steve

I sure if they were available for sale Ron Fry or one of the other Oz collectors would have rescued them. The pieces cut out were used on ploughs, rippers etc, the rolled steel armour was seen as a ready source material. Oddly enough the cast Grant and Staghound turrets seem to have survived better than other types. On the web there are a couple of photos of an abandoned M3 chassis in Madang, New Guinea, which was used for jungle clearance. Madang is where the Australian Army trialed various types of M4s against Churchills in 1944 www.ski-epic.com/2008_papua_new_guinea/madang.html about 2/3rds down the page labeled "Sherman Tank" Steve

The last movie I remember a Churchill appearing in was the 1960s "The Longest Day" a churchill Mk7 T341333 which was a trial vehicle for the 6.5in B/L gun for the Post War AVRE also fitted to the Cent. As film stars they have more problems than most tanks the nature of an infantry tank assault doesn't lend itself well to a screen play. there are several long running projects to restore Churchills in the UK. As for runners The Mk3 AVRE at Bovington, I think the Combaton collection Churchill Crocodile is a runner, i believe the David Russell Crocodile is at the Wheatcroft collection and should be runner. Steve

It seems to be a bit of a confusing story, the rig equipment built in North Eastern England fabrication yards are really big, because except in the inital exploration period (early 1960s) most exploration was done in deep exposed seaway, not much less exposed than on the Grand Banks, so everything was really heavy and bulky. In the UK there has been very little land based explorative drilling for oil, as far as I am aware on the east coast from Durham south to Nolfolk and some work around the Dorset coast where oil is still extracted from low pressure pockets. By the nature of the terrrain involved is comparatively flat it would not really require tracked oil rigs either SP or skidders, but I would be delighted to be proven wrong. The only stuff I know of that was tank based probably Shermans used in the 1950s to extend the electricity grid in the Scottish Highlands,but I've never seen any photographic or scrapyard proof. Steve

The chieftain shown in post #29 had the turret interior burned unfortunately I can't find the photo- of course this is without soft stuff (crew and ammo) in the turret an operative tank would have fire supression which may have given it a chance to be repaired, loader would probably be dead. A A43 in service in 1942 three years earlier than it was even trialed would have impressed the Germans- in 1942 most Churchills still mounted the 2pdr. In 1945 compared to the Centurion it was nothing special and was possibly only developed when it became obvious that the A42 could not take the planned HV 75mm (77mm gun). It would be interesting to know what German weapon experts thought about the new generation of Allied tanks. Steve

Hi robin By North East do you mean Newfoundland & Labrador or North East England. In England as far as I've seen, places like Amec use standard crane and dolly equipment to move stuff around yards- most of the fabrication yards were redundant Ship yards. Steve

Photos of 1). T6 rear view in scrap yard showning rear mounting horns. (from Sherman -war data by David Eshel, tanks are incorrectly abributed as a RAOC scrap yard in Haifa-tanks shown are M4A3 W type not used by British. 2) From Pershing by Hunnicutt showing a knocked out T6 on Okinawa note the smaller horns on front plate. Horns were crudly made from steel plate and welded to the hull fore and aft Steve T6-1.jpg T6-2.jpg

Nick Johns There were a number of ex wehmacht artillery pieces on SPTA - including examples of 150mm and 170mm guns.

Hi Hanno Like this one, (not on Warcop) 06ZR58 used in the 1991 Gulf War returned to UK overhauled and by 1994 arrived for hard targeting. In the 1950s the rational of the Tank Museum seemed to regard only British tanks as having any validity, however it was still unable work out what to acquire or even retain, the classic failures with this regard were A13 MkV Coventanter (of which there were a number in varrying condition at MEE/FVRDE in the 1950s) A24 Cavalier and A27 Centaurs, but there was no consistency in the acquisitions, several examples of Churchill were missed notably the small turreted Mk1/2s several of which were still being used a mobile and dead loads by REME and RCT well into the 1950s. Missing out on automotively intact Ram Kangaroos was a great pity, by finding a ex range turret a half decent example of this interesting vehicle could have been in the collection at an earlier date, I was very disappointed on my first visit to Bovington that there wasn't an example of this tank. Steve 06ZR58.jpg

The only Valentine DD I am aware of is owned by John Pearson, it was bought in an estate sale auction of the Ellard collection in the mid 1980s, there were two Valentines one a standard gun tank went to A.F. Budge and the other the DD was bought by Mr Pearson and completed in an extended rebuild,- it has been seen at a number of Bovington open days and memorial events. I don't think it has anything to do with the Valentine DD that was disposed of by Bovington, in the past Directors of the Tank Museum have taken what now may appear to be bazaar decissions as regards exhibits and what constitutes a tank, for example there have been disputes as to whether Infantry Carriers, which are of course not tanks, have a place in the collection. In the 1970s a "spare" Tortoise was sent for targeting (probably to Lulworth) these days it would probably have gone to USA. Steve

As a geordie I can say without lapsing into a proto-bulgarian language thank you:nono: One of your little jokes I hope:) Apart from a rather ancient nominal barrel bore probably dating from the late 19thC when that wonderful georde Lord Armstrong supplied naval hardware around the world. Seriously the Soviet 57mm gun has nothing to do with the 6pdr and its American cousin the 57mm M1. The soviet weapon Zis2 had a much longer barrel 4162mm against 2970mm (Us M1)and the cartridge of the Soviet weapon is again longer 480mm rimmed with a full shoulder against M1 441mm rimmed. The muzzle velocity is Soviet 1020m/s and US M1 900m/s. The British 6pdr A/A shown has a different barrel length and cartridge capacity from the land service weapon. As are the Soviet weapons, the Zis2 has nothing to do with the 57mm S60. The S60 was probably based on unsuccessful WW2 German research on a 55mm A/A weapon the Gerat 58. Again the length of barrels are different (S60 4390mm) as are the cartridges the S60 having a 348mm Semi rimmed cartridge. Upper drawing S60 lower photo Zis 2 Steve

The resilient steel tired wheel fitted to the Panther -(a Russian design from early KVs) was that it could take a higher loading than a standard rubber road wheel, which in the case of the Panther was at its limit of development, having been aready re-enforced during the Panther D production. The resilient wheel had a longer running life allbeit at the expense of increased inner track wear. the amount of rubber used was not greatly different considering the inner bonding flanges. The manufacturing costs would be higher. As for rubber imports it is significant that Russia discontinued resilient wheels on heavy tanks and partially discontinued using rubber wheels on other tanks until supplies of synthetic rubber could be made available through Lend Lease. The Allies war effort was badly dislocated by the loss of Far Eastern rubber supplies in 1942, Germany on the other hand managed to produce synthetic rubber thoughout WW2 despite the effort made to disrupt its production by bombing the oil plants in Polesti Romania. Your point on wheel removal has merit if the Panther 2 was built with the same design of track fitted to Tiger 2 and E50, if so configured it would "only" require the removal of two outer wheels to remove the an inner wheel. The Panther F as far as I can tell, would have used the dual torsion bar system as fitted to standard Panthers with the Tiger resilient wheel- the only know and photographed turreted F prototype was based on a Standard G with standard rubber wheels. Steve

First the genealogy of the panther is D production Jan to Sept 1943 with a small number of training vehicles refered to as D1 (60mm hull armour. A production August 1943 to May 1944 G production March 1944 to April 1945 F 8 hulls which may be the Panther 2 hulls/ also 1 turret completed that being the turret in Bovington. Panther 2 hull to Fort Knox. The wheels of late Panther G and those to be fitted to Panther F and Panther 2 were the steel rimmed type with the rubber instert, which cannot be classed as a simplified wheel type. Please view B/W photo form a Canadian magazine which shows the damaged Gerat 710 (s 605) purporting to be at "back range at Bovington" this was published in 1978 and was probably a while earlier, Exactly who the photograph is attributed to was not given- therefore it is difficult to confirm the location. The reason for my last point is that from my memory the by then badly damaged turret was returned to Bovington not from Lulworth but from somewhere on the SPTA where it had graduated to the top of a Conqueror ARV. Steve Schmallturn 605.jpg

looks like some sort of stress test on the bridge rather than a problem involving the tanks, otherwise the end of the bridge nearest the camera would not need to be supported by timber.

Hi Hanno The M3 in Australia was a Post War conversion about 1950-3 along with the Yarimba (faux Sexton). With the requirement for CDL there would be no M3s available in UK. The Ram would not be a great choice because of the Radial engine and perhaps the riveted hull. It would certainly be fun to work on or remove the motor from the Dolphin, assuming of course it was still a Radial. Really don't know why the RM replaced the Centurion, moderise the engine and transmission and it could have had a new lease of life, it's not as though there will be another D.Day. regards Steve

Also M103, M41 walker bulldog,m24 probably out of service by 1960. M46 Patton although obsolete by OCM in 1957 was to be retained in Korea until 1963, must have been a regulation thought up for the armastice talk- 10years from start of cease fire. Photo by Alan Turner must show a Us M48 sample in British hands 02BB33 and British uniforms, perhaps the early M48 still at Bovington?

Please view two photos 3 penetration and 2 none penetrating hits by ATRL and ATGW type unknown but nothing special -photos are from a general training range- nothing restricted- Chieftain is one written off by CFE. Steve chieftain stilbrew target 1.jpg chieftain stillbrew 2.jpg

I thought it was a confession:). Interesting extract, I heard a similar thing but it involved double folded service blankets - it really neads to be tried on mythbusters, I'm certain there must be a jackanory section in Q Regs. A Sterling fired super charged 9mm so it would be unwise to say the least:??? Re the tiger tank turret, over the years there were various turrets on Warcop some like the Chieftain turrets south west of N ridge are probably still there. However here's my explantion of what you may have seen. In the Churchill gallery I post this photo of a Conqueror ARV 1 at Warcop. I don't know when this ARV arrived on Warcop but 1976 is not beyond reason. Look at the superstructure, with the escape hatch it looks like a Tiger tank turret especially viewed through a site with a ridge or fold of ground in the foreground. I am not saying however that in earlier time German wrecks were not on gunery ranges, indeed as you are an ex north easterner you may have heard of a old RAF range called Goswick (near Sea houses) during WW2 a Marder 2 -the one with 76mm Russian A/T was put out as a target. Other ranges have persistant rumours of German artifacts, all may have an element of truth but almost all are long gone. Once I was looking for wrecks on a RAF range and saw what I thought was a tank turret at a great distance, so I got as close as I could via road/track. Observing again, "looks like a Comet without a mantlet but the cupola is on the wrong side- wow it's a A43 Super Churchill- got to get there", so after about a mile or more of walking it revealed itself as the remains of an ex RAF bedford CF van. The additional photo is a ferret 1 used a a plate target support on a mobile target range. Churchill hull against Conqueror ARv Mk1 -p2.jpg ferret 1.jpg Steve

Didn't mean your memory was error, on the contrary, I would think that the bridges themselves would have been so useful on the range and would be taken by range crews, but the bridges themselves would last no time as a target. The number up there would vary over time probably the earliest would be the Gun tanks and then the WW2 AVREs then the BLs and possibly post war specials. As to the Valentine perfectly possible -after all a Valentine DD was discarded by Bovington and probably ended up somewhere. Steve

Hi Hanno Nice link, it also mentions the similar M3 BARV -built by the Australians (must be a genetic thing that the dominions all try the same thing:)). I wonder if the hull on BARVs are balasted- pig iron in the ex fighting compartment. Further the Indian Army have an example of a Sherman BARV, which whilst a gateguard at EME depot at Hyderabad it was designated a Battle Recce Vehicle BRV whatever that may be? Hyderbad has several other Sherman-specials and other critical WW2 AFVs most incorrectly labeled-A Crab designated as an ARV, for example. The BARV is now at the Indian Armour Mueusum at Ahmednagar along with a good number of other AFVs for example a Sherman Crab and DD with most of the screen components, they also have a WW2 Sdkfz 231 armoured car and the only other Coventry Armoured Car. See http://relics.warbirds.in/main.php?g2_view=keyalbum.KeywordAlbum&g2_keyword=BRV for the Sherman BARV in India. regards steve

I'm surprised that the bridges were on the vehicles, the date is certainly in keeping with the last days of the Churchills, last parade was at Honne in 1965. Certainly one of the photos shown in Eddy8men's posts could be a Mk7 Bridgelayer the 3 Churchills that I saw on Warcop were gun tanks-no fittings on the hull front. I did a Cadet thing on Otterburn in 1968- we struggled along not seeing a single tank all day, as the sun started to fall, our officer and his sergeant became convinced they spotted a tank on the top of a distant hill, my mate kenny whined- "Steve says it's a pile of stone with a stick stuck in the side - don't bother, if Steve says it's not a tank it's not a tank" - An hour later we were all back in camp disappointed that it was the "trig point" that had fallen over. It's so easy these days with mobile phones -happy snapped! Steve

eddy8men Hi eddy you're fairly close it is the prototype Vickers Twin 7.62mm GPMG turret as was fitted to At105 supplied to Malaysian Police in the 1980s so could well have been considered for Saxon the prototype was scrapped in 1999 and may have been used to trial the single 7.62mm gun mount hence the monting of only one dummy weapon. The single mount turret was used by Burnii and Omani internal security vehicles. Steve

I have been told 10 at £4000 a piece many were promtly retrieved. I would be interested anyone has any photos of those that were destroyed at Warcop, they may be tank no. 91 and 134 and probably would have this number painted like a "bort" number on the hull sides. There may have been more than two placed on this range. Steve

So you're the one who started the German tank turret rumour Eh:). I don't know if these plates would be from the either Eagle or Ark Royal (which were sister ships or at least started out as such) neither were scrapped at that time Eagle laided up Ark Royal still in commision, Eagle scrapping started 1978 followed by Ark Royal decommision in 1979, scrapping started in 1980. however it is possible that the only place were 6inch plates existed on these ships (a 4.5 backed with 1.5 inch plate) were on the ends of the hanger, which could be the source if altered (as you say) during an upgrade, larger aircraft requiring a enlarged hanger. There are many 180lb naval plates on various ranges, I seen them with set screw mountings which probably mean they came off pre ww2 ship, certainly it is said those on Sennybridge are off the belt of an old cruiser, but without records who knows! Steve

Sorry the Mk4 shown was the only Ferret I saw, the only vehicles pending targeting were a couple of Chieftains **SP** or **MS** numbered and may have been development tanks such as Chieftain 800-900 etc but by then I had run out of film. Steve