steveo578

It is never a necessity to penalise the knowledgeable to benefit the ignorant. The answer to this problem is to place information boards on childrens blackboards (as was the case a Bovington) and photographers should ensure that if they move the easel they put it back when they are finished. Steve

John Thanks for the input, with reference to the Valentine Mk1, I would imagine these tanks were far from the tank target lines. I was aware of a couple of AFVs one at least with the dislodged remains of a turret at or about NY188754 to the east of a small wood which is about +500m north of N ridge- the main tank target area. In hindsight, these could have been Valentines, but being time constrained as I was there to get photos of the Conqueror ARV Mk1 to the west, the M10Cs near Middle Fell and to see if anything left of the M4A1 Grizzlies. Additionally by the time I spotted them with standard 10x50s I was disincled to walk back up Long Fell, it is possible that I missed this area completely on the way to the Middle Fell. The Grizzlies may still have been there in the late 1980s not far from a pair of M47. Steve

It also has to do with relative acidicy of bogland and pine forests, in areas of alkalinity for example southern England steel rots in the soil. On moorland areas oxidation is less of a problem, at least for buried steel items. Steve

Bit off thread, does anyone have any photos of the MH Mk4 at the Martyrs gate in Amman Jordan. see the following link for a v. sad Matilda on a redundant coastal range near Dunbar http://www.flickr.com/search/groups/?q=matilda%20tank&w=588326%40N25&m=pool Steve

There are a few non runners about -again Armour in Focus Churchill site is useful, but without listing all they spread from Eden Camp in Yorkshire to Isle of wight and of course Bovington has non runners- The Bovington Mk7, the last built tank was delivered there without being issued, should be a candidate to get running if there ever was one. Steve

thanks I thought it was "don't ask/don't tell" So is it a private collection or is the army building its own tank museum? Steve

Joke:)really, just didn't want to press for smilies:) thought it could have been California hence the reply. But if near east means the one at latrun (Yad Shiryon) then it is not the Rainham tank as Yad Shiryon is ex Australian. Steve

CommanderChuff I'm not upset by your point of view on the contrary I applaud it, unfortunately I doubt most museum management will be so sanguine about this, the attitude professional management is light years away from enthusiasts and after 3-7 years of academia and "serving their time" at some museum or other they consider themselves as the sole arbiters of museum management, taste and policy which is amplified by things that have been mentioned by earlier posters such as requirements of lottery funding, requirements of national curriculum to get further funding and general dumming down to get attendance figures up. The problem is that in the past museums were staffed by true amateurs (La. & Fr. “for the love of it”) was often done as a second career, (and this can also apply to academia itself). The current requirements to get funding requires a professional curatorial staff, irrespective whether their skill set is appropriate and unfortunately it rarely is and that is why we hear the complaints about the aforementioned museums. Steve

malyutkaman Re Beverly I know of two only, the Churchill is now at Bovington as a Gateguard which would be very fitting if it did not have that lump of pipe sticking out of the hull besa mount, its a Mk2 not a Mk1. When people on Flickr are pointing this out its time to get the hacksaw out. The Crusader and its tank rail transporter has been reported by a HMVF member as being at a small railway museum in Northern England. As to the other vehicles I have no idea- so much stuff just evaporates! Steve

. At the moment Switzerland is sunnier climes. the littlefield collection Matilda is I think an ex Budge tank but I could be wrong. I previously mentioned that a Grizzly went to Geneva, fairly certain it was once the Budge tank Anne or Annie, did it return? Steve

Hi Phil problem is the A1 road widening schemes and roundabout approaches means the whole area has been probably dug and redug over the years. However one tool which could be of use is that one of the Mapping Sites (I can't remember which at the moment and it's about a year since I used it) has a old Map overlay which is the O/S layout in 1958 so basically the same map layout prior to the major road building and probably would similar to that of WW2. I think there should be an urban legends thread and FYI the russian T34/76 Hex turret which was recoved in Lativa, it started as soon as they cleaned the injectors and put a new battery pack on, that is at the seen of its recovery, I believe some people wanted to see if the weapons still worked. Steve

I should have looked at "armour in focus" site first, but I actually spotted it while I was looking for the Matilda for the other thread. Steve

Most British Army "active duty" Chieftains (ie those in BAOR) were fitted with Stillbrew by Base workshops by 1986. Steve

I've looked through the Wheatcroft web site to see if there is any sign of the Matilda but without success, the other place mentioned is titled Musée des Blindés, Canons et instruments de Justice, Geneva, Switzerland which is another of those "Black Holes" for military stuff, it evidently no longer exists, but whether this is some sort of smoke screen I don't know. Steve

That one is probably an Australian import note the turret ring guards. This also means that the Yad Shiryon Matilda is also out of the running as it too has turret ring guards meaning it was probably from Oz. Steve

We haven't established where it is now. It has been mentioned that the tank had a T number does anyone have a photo showing it or made a note of it at the time as in the absense of any visible range damage may be the only way to identify the tank. Of preserved Matildas I think we can disregard the 2 or 3 in Russia and those in Australia on the basis of export to Australia is unlikely considering the number out there. The Bovington tanks are T10459 (may have originally been T10549 and number jumbled during repainting) and the CDL T7341. IWM tank is T10245 and like the Bovington tank is supposed to be one that spent it life as a training vehicle. Saumur is T7418, Yad Shiron is T7412 and Jaques Littlefields is T7415 makes you consider whether these tanks have been repainted and casually numbered as RTR tanks in the desert war. The Belgian tank museum tank is T5734. There is also an unrestored A12 at the Wheatcroft Collection. There is also a possibility that a Matilda refurbished in Kent is at a private museum in Geneva along with a number of restored vehicles including M4A1 Grizzly a Sexton and a IS3m. Of these vehicles it is possible that the Wheatcroft , Yad Shiron tank or the Geneva tank may be the Rainham tank. It is almost certainly not any of the others as their provenance is known. Steve

There is a second Mk7 probably a Croc. at the Wheatcroft collection it is a later model fitted with 4 bolt spaced out armour attachment points. Steve

Hi Hanno It was a rhetorical question- I shouldn't be such a prat. When I went there on a Sunday access was not curtailed due to firing, but I could make the wreck out with binos. I waited until the afternoon when the red flag was dropped,then it was strange guys in T shirts or leather jackets with agressive dogs probably involved in some form of illegal activity like dog fighting who made it plain strangers were not welcome on their playground, so I never did see the Ram or whether anything else was on the range. Steve

the post-card photo almost looks almost bronze green as opposed to "standard range rotten red iron and faded olive" colours of most targets (see Ram photo on same range) hence my thought that it was either a enhanced photo or it had not been on the range for expected 30+years. Was the Matilda you saw that deep a colour. It is even possible that the Matilda had been a gateguard at this range, many training areas have had gateguards which often get lost when a new commander arrives. for example there was a Conqueror at Catterick, which disappeared -possibly up the road to Warcop. Steve

Nice pic, I wonder if the pic has a green wash enhancement, otherwise that amount of green could possibly it was once a gateguard- painted regularly. Matildas were supposed to have survived into Post War training does anyone have any knowledge of this- I would have thought there was better training vehicles and too light as a recovery hulk or RASC load. Steve

I'm pretty sure you're thinking of the Ram Kangaroo not a Sherman, it went to a well known collector in Kent in about 1993, don't know if they still have it or whether it was traded on. Steve

Hi Hanno Wasn't the Gravesend Ram (the one that had its back-end cut off to get the motor) in the overshoot of a rifle range? Steve

The movie The Small Back Room 1948 has a sequence showing a weapons trial on Salisbury Plain (c/w Stonehedge in the background of a firing point-just in case the audience didn't know the ref. to salisbury plain). The target is an early Churchill Mk1-2. (The movie has an early appearance by the actor Sid James, as a publican.) There are a number of propergander newsreals that show Churchills, one springs to mind shows Churchill Mk4s of 144th RTR (East Lancashire Rgt.) during a cross country run. Later 144th served in ETO in Shermans. Steve

It was planned to put a meteor into A43 which would have brought its road speed to 20-22mph on a par with Centurion, although at that sort of speed without a rubber road wheel system the thing would shake itself apart! It could only be regarded as a one of the last gasps of the discredited compartitive class system (light,Cruiser Infantry). I find naming a tank as farvourite difficult, but if I had name just one I would say the Ram tank particularly the Mk1 but like the A43, the Churchill and the Covenanter not the best tank just lots of character. Steve

I may be wrong but if I'm thinking of the same Matilda the condition of the Tracks/suspension was badly corroded and worse still the EOD burnt ordnance remains inside it during the closing down of the range. I'm sure it was at Bovington for a while about 1991. Steve