8_10 Brass Cleaner Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Are the chassis hooks on the typical WW1 'Subsidy' lorry as a specific result of a WD specification? I've never really seen them on anything other than 'Subsidy' lorries. The reason I ask, I have a circa 1913 'Eagle' trailer. It also has hooks on the back. Could this be a WD trailer?, perhaps for use behind steam road locomotives etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 My understanding is that the hooks were indeed a requirement of the subsidy scheme. You also see them on many of the US imports such as Peerless, Locomobile and FWD. Most hooks seem to be secured by the front shackle pin although some (like the IWM FWD) have similar brackets to the Eagle trailer: Not sure if the same requirement applied to trailers but i would expect so. What is your plan with the Eagle? A full restoration? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8_10 Brass Cleaner Posted April 10, 2011 Author Share Posted April 10, 2011 My understanding is that the hooks were indeed a requirement of the subsidy scheme. Not sure if the same requirement applied to trailers but i would expect so. What is your plan with the Eagle? A full restoration? I noticed some similar in some of your pics on the Dennis thread Plan is initially to get it on its wheels. Then take it from there as we may have spent more than its worth!. Still its better off with us than under a hedge. Progress so far:- Brakes sorted out (everything except the shoes was missing) Recognise the hubcap? The two Steven brought up are now on, the original two unmarked ones will go on the front. And progress in the last fortnight, a sand blasted chassis. There is a bit of rot, but 100mm channel is a pretty close fit to 4inch. It will likely get two new crossmenbers and some gusset plates in due course. We have also got 4 rubbers to fit on it, 4 tank idler wheels (£60 each!) will bore out to suit 670 wheels, the centres are pretty hard I'm told so we will need a Webster and Bennet vertical borer and carbide tip. We also need to find out what the interference fit should be so they are not loose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runflat Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 The 1912 subsidy scheme technical specification says, at part 32: Towing hooks: Four towing hooks of standard pattern to be fitted, two in front and two in rear, vide drawings Nos. 105 and 106. Those at back to be fixed to frame with two 5/8in. rivets or bolts. Those in front to swivel in the dumb irons, and to be fitted with standard bolt and with no. 2 Rotherham lubricator. If necessary, frame to be strengthened at rear end to prevent any damage being done to it should towing hooks be used even at an angle of 15 degrees from the longitudinal axis of the vehicle. In case anyone is really interested, file WO 32/3040 at the National Archive has a copy of the drawing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 I would be very interested in going to look at that, but where did you find that reference? When i look on their website it gives me the following: WO 32/3040 REGIMENTAL and CHARITABLE FUNDS: Individual Cases (Code 30©): Application from "Legion of Frontiers-men" for grant from endowment fund of King Edwards Horse 1929 Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8_10 Brass Cleaner Posted April 11, 2011 Author Share Posted April 11, 2011 I recently borrowled the Road Locomotive Society Portfolio on 'Traction Wagons & Other Trailers' In it was a reference to a WD specification for trailers, the intimation was ones that were to be used behind road locomotives. There was some detal in terms of weights etc, but the document was not included nor any reference where to find it. Where would I need to look to find such a document? The hooks on the trailer are identical to the ones on Great war Truck's Dennis, from the pictures I see they are identical to the ones on the FWD at Duxford, so the hooks are at least certainly to WD spec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Peskett Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 A little more on towing hooks, Alan is quite correct with his 'Subsidy Scheme' quotes. As we know a great number of American vehicles were purchased at the time and most of these did not have towing hooks, I don't think I have seen a picture of a Peerless with towing hooks at the front end, so just how important they were may be open to question as there appears to be no great rush to fit them to imported vehicles. The only vehicles I have seen are FWDs , Quads and Liberty class B .The US favouring a 'cow horn' type of hook as per the attached photo of a Liberty we restored several years ago. Towing hitches ( which do not feature in the 'Subsidy' specs.) also differ in that the UK ones appear to be a loose 'drop in' pin type whereas the US are sprung loaded hook and keep types. Again as not being included in the 'Subsidy' spec. it must have been thought that GS lorries would not tow trailers. Richard Peskett. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runflat Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Tim, good to see you're awake and spotted the deliberate mistake! :red: The file is WO 32/5040: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=6&CATID=3252936&SearchInit=4&SearchType=6&CATREF=wo+32%2F5040 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Thanks Alan That has saved me a fruitless day at Kew then. I will pop down and copy them so we have the exact measurements. It is hard enough trying to find something even if i know where to look. I have gone through my Peerless photos and between 1/2 and 2/3rds of them have hooks at the front: Interestingly, the US Peerless trucks (still in the USA when photographed) all have them as well so it must have been a factory fit. One of the WD Peerless has the other style of tow hook as opposed to the one that hangs on the spring shackle: I could only find one photo of a Peerless with a hook on the back of the chassis, although i must say that i do not have many photos showing this part of the truck. It does look to be the same style of hook as on the FWD and on the Eagle: These obscure things become very interesting when you start comparing notes and photographs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runflat Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Tim, to get exact measurements just walk to the front of your truck with a tape measure! Of course in days of yore James Bartle & Co would have been pleased to supply you over the counter: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Yes indeed. That would be the easiest way. Thinking about it, i vaguely remember us having hook brackets on the back of the Peerless chassis. I will have to get everything uncovered and take a look. Fantastic advert by the way. I presume you had a successful weekend at the British library? Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runflat Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Oh they were found ages ago... many years work still left both at BL and other archives... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nz2 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 What an advert! And Tony spent so much time making all those brrackets for the Dennis. I assume James Bartle is no longer in business. A call to Dr Who for use of the time machine is on. Doug :nut: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runflat Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) From the web: The leading local iron works was Jas. Bartle and Co Western Iron Works located at 236A Lancaster Road. In 1981 the works were commemorated in the naming of Bartle Road when the area around Rillington Place was redeveloped. The wall of Bartle’s works abutted John Christie’s house at 10 Rillington Place and members of the Bartle family lived at number 3. James Bartle was born in Camborne, Cornwall in 1826 and the 1851 census shows him working in Islington. In 1854 he founded the iron foundry in Lancaster Road, which made coachwork and iron castings including manhole covers. By 1881 he was employing 62 men and 13 boys. Bartle was a leading figure in the community and was made a Freeman by Kensington Vestry. He died aged 70 at Camborne House, 236 Ladbroke Road in 1896 and the business was sold in 1910 to C S Windsor. The new owner not only continued to produce cast iron products but also developed and manufactured the Windsor Light car, which was launched at the 1923 Motor Show. Following Windsor’s death, Bartle’s was forced into liquidation in 1927. And looks like the works had a fine chimney: http://www.10-rillington-place.co.uk/html/period.html http://www.historytalk.org/Notting%20Hill%20History%20Timeline/timelinechap6.pdf Edited April 12, 2011 by Runflat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nz2 Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 The 1912 subsidy scheme technical specification says, at part 32: Towing hooks: Four towing hooks of standard pattern to be fitted, two in front and two in rear, vide drawings Nos. 105 and 106. Those at back to be fixed to frame with two 5/8in. rivets or bolts. Those in front to swivel in the dumb irons, and to be fitted with standard bolt and with no. 2 Rotherham lubricator. If necessary, frame to be strengthened at rear end to prevent any damage being done to it should towing hooks be used even at an angle of 15 degrees from the longitudinal axis of the vehicle. In case anyone is really interested, file WO 32/3040 at the National Archive has a copy of the drawing! Interesting. My Thornycroft model X ( 1919) has hooks on the front, while the Thornycroft J of 1912-13 has none and no provision for them. The pins being too short even with the lubricator. Perhaps it was an export option for those on the model X, as I've seen them on some J chassis here while others don't have them. Did Bartel's have any identifing mark cast or stamped on their produced items? Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Larkin Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 To quote from orders issued at the end of July 1914 for the impressment of vehicles to be delivered to the Temporary Motor Transport Depot, Kensington by midnight on day of mobilisation: 'When impressing vans, care must be taken not to seize any vehicles already subsidised by the War Department (note - Subsidy type vehicles all have towing hooks fitted)' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8_10 Brass Cleaner Posted April 13, 2011 Author Share Posted April 13, 2011 Interesting. My Thornycroft model X ( 1919) has hooks on the front, while the Thornycroft J of 1912-13 has none and no provision for them. The pins being too short even with the lubricator.Perhaps it was an export option for those on the model X, as I've seen them on some J chassis here while others don't have them. Did Bartel's have any identifing mark cast or stamped on their produced items? Doug Doug, what is the history of these great war period lorries in the antipodes?, are they war surplus like many over here?, or were they exported new there?, or perhaps both? If a J type was supplied new to a customer in Australia/New Zealand I guess it wouldn't have hooks, whearas a War surplus one would be likely to have them?. I guess to that it is likely that some lorries in the UK that were not part of the subsidy scheme were comandeered, were used by the War Office, then sold and no doubt some of these survive too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Here are some photos of our Peerless front hooks and rear brackets. We will have to see if we can find the hooks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nz2 Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Doug, what is the history of these great war period lorries in the antipodes?, are they war surplus like many over here?, or were they exported new there?, or perhaps both? If a J type was supplied new to a customer in Australia/New Zealand I guess it wouldn't have hooks, whearas a War surplus one would be likely to have them?. I guess to that it is likely that some lorries in the UK that were not part of the subsidy scheme were comandeered, were used by the War Office, then sold and no doubt some of these survive too. Hooks are shown as standard items on the parts list for Thornycroft J of 1919, but are not listed in a 1926 list. The Model X came to NZ direct from Thornycroft new, I have another J chassis( yet to pick up) with hooks on the front that was in the same shipment. That shipping information supplied from Hampshire Museum Servlce records. The early J here is assumed to be ex WD, and sold as war surplus. It has no chassis number on the dumb irons, ( but very few in NZ do). There are enough differing features to the chassis to link it to that first batch for the War Dept, but then it could be even earlier as a prototype J. One day a reference will be located matching early production and unusual features. So far research has taken many years and steadily the information is clarifing the mystery. What makes it more time consuming is the historic records of motor vehicle licencing in NZ does not exist, and the records of the importing agent, ( Hatrick's) were destroyed after that company closed. Doug :-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8_10 Brass Cleaner Posted June 12, 2011 Author Share Posted June 12, 2011 I've not done any research into the WD specification yet, however it seems 1913 is a good date for Trailer No5. This is tha date Eagle Engineering superseeded Glovers of Warwick. Some pictures of the progress. Sandblasting found some proper thin metal and I'm in the process of replacing it We have also had it on its wheels for a look see. All the spring shackels and mounting brackets are new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Elsdon Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) Im researching Maudslay stuff for Coventry Transport Museums Maudslay at the moment, and have this photo of a Maudslay, with a pair of posing bikers buggering up the shot! (Bloke on right bike has Marlon Brandos look, also on a Triumph but about 40 years earlier) Anyway I digress, it gives a reasonably clear shot of the top of the front hook, which looks very much like the Bartle produced item, although the headlamps and radiator protection have a different ironwork arrangement. I have put another photo of a Maudslay in the Coventry Transport Museum restoration thread, and will update on any other info I find about it. Edited July 9, 2013 by Adam Elsdon Sausage fingers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charawacky Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 (edited) Adam, Thanks for posting this image For me the bikes are enhancing the shot! They are Phelon and Moore 3.5 hp motorcycles (Cleckheaton, Yorkshire). AK reg Bradford (Dec 1903 to Mar 1922) LR London (July 1916 to July 1918) For referance the Maudslay W reg sheffield (Jan 1904 - Oct 1919) Both bikes have an additional mud shield to protect the engine from front wheel splashes, not seen this before! Being chain drive the army was not keen on them however the RFC standardised on them. I see the RAF/RFC used Maudslays according to your other posting on the Maudslay thread. Thanks again, Tom Edited July 10, 2013 by Charawacky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon_M Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Being chain drive the army was not keen on them Thanks again, Tom Go on then, for us non-bike people, what's the alternative to a chain drive please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 HI GORDON I seem to remember that the three wheel in line prototypes used a whittle belt drive system the one we had was a TRIUMPH 1926 REG MK5626 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charawacky Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 (edited) Go on then, for us non-bike people, what's the alternative to a chain drive please? I think V belts were used predominately by on other more common but less advanced motorcycles By the mid twenties nearly all had seen the light and moved to chain final drive. WW1 production 3,000 Phelon and Moore 30,000 Triumph 70,000 Douglas P&M were comparatively a very small manufacturer Tom Here is a 1915/16 P&M at the Yorkshire Wartime Experience http://www.flickr.com/photos/21667585@N03/9232558676/ Edited July 11, 2013 by Charawacky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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