WW2 - army level vehicle markings

[john fox]

Pardon my ignorance and point me to whereever if this is old hat

 

I have a Morris 15cwt C8 which i would like to mark up as a Pioneer Corps vehicle in WW2. I think the Pioneers were always an army unit rather than divisional so can anyone confirm this and help with the markings it would use. I want to do 2nd Army in NW Europe so an guessing the white shield with blue cross (RHS or LHS??) and what else???

Cheers

John

[79x100]

I am no expert on this but I do have a copy of "British Military Markings 1939 - 1945" by Hodges & Taylor. This is by far the most detailed source that I have found.

 

Pioneer Corps NW Europe 1944 appear to have been a 21st Army Group Asset and would therefore have carried Blue Cross on Red as Formation Sign.

 

Arm of Service Flash for PC was Green over Black, horizontally divided with the usual white bar to indicate Army, Corps or GHQ troops.

 

The following possibilities are listed:-

 

White Bar diagonal, bottom to top, serial no. 761 - Army Group troops.

White Bar diagonal, top to bottom, serial no. 1610 - GHQ troops.

White Bar diagonal, bottom to top, serial no. 1611 - Army Group troops.

White Bar diagonal, bottom to top, serial no. 1821 - Army Group troops.

White Bar Horizontally Under, serial no. 2651 - Army troops.

 

Also listed are Pioneer Salvage Units at Corps level, carrying Unit serial no.85 in conjunction with appropriate corps insignia and presumably with the white bar above the Arm of Service flash to indicate Corps asset.

 

I can find no indication as to which specific units were allocated the serial no.s and it is not clear if any of these units were Canadian.

 

Hope this helps, if I find anything else, I will post it.

[john fox]

fantastic thanks

my dad was pioneers and went from 1940 to 1946 in them (including first wave on Sword 6th June) and kept his 2nd army uniform insignia but I never asked him about the vehicle markings hence my interest

 

is that book still in print?

John

[79x100]

John,

 

Sorry to say that the book is out of print but is not that old - published December 1994 by Cannon Publications. ISBN 1 899695 00 1

 

I obtained mine last year on ebay from a seller called neilsdeals. He had a supply of "new old stock" which he was releasing one at a time. Might be worth an email to see if he still has any.

 

It is important to differentiate between the 1994 "reprint" and the original 1971 Almark book by Peter Hodges alone. The first book was compiled while most documents were still classified and Michael Taylor's appendices are longer than the original text which means that information sometimes needs searching out.

 

I will give it another read and see if I can find anything else to help. Do you recall any additional details of your Dad's unit ?

 

My Dad was in NW Europe with 11 Air Formation Signals and has a good memory but is not and never has been a vehicle enthusiast so questions to him about vehicle markings are usually answered with a "Never paid that much attention"

 

By the way, which part of Surrey are you from ? I am originally from Warlingham.

[john fox]

after training dad in 1940 spent the rest of the war with 292 company pioneers starting with firewatching in Gloucester docks (1941), airfield building (West Malling) and other infills he than landed at 11am on D Day. He would never talk about that other than to say they had to clear a bunker and the occupants had been in the middle of breakfast. His company lost 4 killed and 2 wounded that day - not much compared to the "assault" troops but then again .... (details taken from the company war diary, as I say Dad was silent on it)

he reminaed with in NW Euope for 1944 - 45 on typical pioneer work - roads, petrol dumps etc etc. He finished up in Germany obviously but again would not talk about that - other than to refuse to watch any war film made by Hollywood about who won the war!!

 

I live in Bookham so fair way from your old ground

 

Thanks again for the info - I have commenced the book hunt (Evans books lists a copy)

[79x100]

I've had a chat with my Dad tonight and he's going to have a look through his books as well although most of them are immediate post-war publications and tend to be a bit short on detail.

 

He is fairly certain that he only remembers pioneers in NW Europe as part of 21st Army and also cannot remember any Canadian Pioneers so perhaps all those at Army Group level were British. This is of course not definitive but perhaps helps build up a picture.

 

My Dad spent D-Day tied up on the South Coast losing all his money playing cards. I don't think he has gambled since ! I too grew up with the same views on Hollywood films "The bloody Yanks weren't even there" is one of his milder comments.

 

I used to work in Dorking and for some reason the Black Swan at Effingham was a regular haunt at one time so Bookham doesn't seem too far away to me.

 

Good luck with your book hunt. If you really get stuck, I'll run you off some photocopies if it's quiet at work. That said, if you are considering various options for British wartime vehicle markings then I think that it is the book to have. I seem to remember that the IWM site shows that their library has a copy.

 

Cheers.

 

Rich.