Photos from Military vehicle collections / photo of Austrian Alvis Stalwart

[Mark Ellis]

I've seen numerous links on numerous web forums for photos from A F Budge's site - but all these links are broken, as in the photo hosting websites has gone, or the person has stopped paying their ransom.

If you have any old photos of Richard Beddal, A (Tony) F Budge or Harry Pounds, etc - perhaps you could share the actual photos on here, because so many photos can't be seen due to the broken links.

 

I'm specifically looking for photos of 4 Alvis Stalwarts that Richard Beddall bought from Austria in the mid 1980s. These were sold to A (Tony) F Budge around 1988.

 

These Austrian Stalwarts, like the 2 German ones have Hella combined side and indicator lights on the side of the cab, rather than the usual two rubies on the front of the cab.

 

 

 

 

 

Any help greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[fv1609]

I have a Budge catalogue somewhere, it is more of a folder with promotional vehicle data sheets. I know it includes Pig & Shorland as those are my primary interests. I'll see if there is a Stalwart sheet in there.

[fv1609]

Against all odds I managed to find it within 10 mins. There is data on the reverse, nothing I'm sure you don't know already. But I will do you some decent scans for your web site in due course.

To be going on with:

 

[Mark Ellis]

1 hour ago, fv1609 said:

Against all odds I managed to find it within 10 mins. There is data on the reverse, nothing I'm sure you don't know already. But I will do you some decent scans for your web site in due course.

To be going on with:

 

 

Many thanks, Clive.

I've been directed to this website, where there are a few photos which must have been taken after 1993 due to all the ex BAOR Stalwarts there. Sadly, can't see the odd ones enough to know which ones they are

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/after-battle/budge-collection-retford-long-ago-far-away-24267/ 

[fv1609]

Mark that's a good link I've not seen so much of the collection before. These other sites that are defunct, have you tried looking for archived pages in :

https://help.archive.org/help/wayback-machine-general-information/

[Mark Ellis]

1 hour ago, fv1609 said:

Mark that's a good link I've not seen so much of the collection before. These other sites that are defunct, have you tried looking for archived pages in :

https://help.archive.org/help/wayback-machine-general-information/

No, I've not had much time to look at archived pages, but will do. But I think this link has quite a few from inside, but I'd like to see earlier photos. I'm presuming they're all after 93.

Been watching all the Christmas specials amongst the browsing 😉

I've found a couple of forums that I've never seen before, they're WW2 forums that have links to defunct photo shares of Budge. One has a person who has a number of old Budge sales brochures, so something might come from that.

[10FM68]

In the photo of the line-up of Stalwarts, I see that they have painted on 'MS' ERMs suggesting that they were military sales ones, though they look pretty standard to me as do the paint schemes.

[Mark Ellis]

10 minutes ago, 10FM68 said:

In the photo of the line-up of Stalwarts, I see that they have painted on 'MS' ERMs suggesting that they were military sales ones, though they look pretty standard to me as do the paint schemes.

All those MS numbers ones are ex BAOR, which were given new numbers before Budge shipped them back from Germany in 1993. Military Surplus more like.
I did an FOI to MOD on the MS numbers, and they have no records or knowledge of what MS stands for

[fv1609]

The MS series was used for "Vehicle numbers issued for overseas customers"

I have always understood that MS indicated Ministry Sales.

[Mark Ellis]

1 hour ago, fv1609 said:

The MS series was used for "Vehicle numbers issued for overseas customers"

I have always understood that MS indicated Ministry Sales.

I had this FOI response in November 2020, when I first started delving in to the history, post service

[10FM68]

2 hours ago, fv1609 said:

The MS series was used for "Vehicle numbers issued for overseas customers"

I have always understood that MS indicated Ministry Sales.

Equally, I always thought it was 'military sales', but both are possible, I suppose.  But, as we have found with 'SA' you can't trust all you read - I also saw a photo of an old Karrier Bantam airfield control van with a 'TM' ERM which seems odd and out of sequence.  So there were a lot more exceptions to the rule than perhaps we are aware of.

[wally dugan]

Your reply does not surprise me there are no records of MS registration either on 419B CARDS or on MERLIN as the sales were handle by a separate government department

[wally dugan]

 AS to TM REGISTRATION number these were allocated to trailer machinery as to AS reg l add to it

[10FM68]

1 hour ago, wally dugan said:

 AS to TM REGISTRATION number these were allocated to trailer machinery

I knew that, so that is why I was surprised to see it on a Karrier Bantam.  

[wally dugan]

May be it was the equipment that was in it and it could not be moved under its own power

[fv1609]

25 minutes ago, wally dugan said:

Your reply does not surprise me there are no records of MS registration either on 419B CARDS or on MERLIN as the sales were handle by a separate government department

I wonder if that department is what appears in some ledgers as "MOD St Christopher House" looking at an old list of MOD departments located there this seems the most likely:

Defence Analytical Services Agency
Ministry of Defence
Room 1/124
St Christopher House
Southwark Street
London SE1 0TD

Following DASA website takes you to Abbeywood where presumably your FOI ended up Mark : (

I also have notes of a list I saw (at Bovington?) of the FVBOC located in Room 5114, St Christopher House.

[wally dugan]

l think you should try DESA  and ask them if they can shed any light on this DEFENCE EQUIPMENT SALES AUTHORITY  or their predecessor

Edited December 27, 2023 by wally dugan

[sirhc]

MS is Military Sales number. 

[Mark Ellis]

2 hours ago, fv1609 said:

I wonder if that department is what appears in some ledgers as "MOD St Christopher House" looking at an old list of MOD departments located there this seems the most likely:

Defence Analytical Services Agency
Ministry of Defence
Room 1/124
St Christopher House
Southwark Street
London SE1 0TD

 

Following DASA website takes you to Abbeywood where presumably your FOI ended up Mark : (

I also have notes of a list I saw (at Bovington?) of the FVBOC located in Room 5114, St Christopher House.

I emailed the FOI to cio-foi@mod.uk

Their address is 

MOD Information Rights Team
Ground floor, zone D
Main Building
Whitehall
London SW1A 2HB

They passed it to 

Defence Equipment and Support Secretariat
#2043 Maple 0a
Ministry of Defence
Abbey Wood

With the email - DESSEC-PolSecLE-JSC-WPNS@mod.gov.uk

 

I did email DESDESA-General-Enquiries@mod.gov.uk in June, and never had an acknowledgement let alone a response - but think that's because of what is currently going on at Abbey Wood..

I did ask a dear friend in the field

"Hi, 
Would you know - Is there a department of the Government that's responsible for military vehicle sales to other countries - that keeps records?"

And received the response

"That is actually the area that ____ is working in now – it’s DESA.  The problem they often complain about is the various previous “versions” of DESA and lose of records.  ____ is surprisingly knowledgeable himself because of working in the military vehicle area for many years."

So technically, I've asked DESA

[Mark Ellis]

1 minute ago, sirhc said:

MS is Military Sales number. 

Would you have any of that list for stalwarts - registrations

23EK, 24EK,

60EP88, 60EP89, 61EP00

07ER, 08ER, 09ER, 10ER

16ET, 17ET. 18ET. 19ET, 20ET

89ET, 90ET, 91ET

at all please?

[10FM68]

22 minutes ago, sirhc said:

MS is Military Sales number. 

Thanks for that SIRHC.  I was confident about it meaning Military Sales, but I hadn't come across systematic re-numbering of auction lots before.  Do you know, whether this re-numbering applied to all disposals, or just those from BAOR being brought back to UK for sale and do you know, was it in use for a limited time only in this regard or for a protracted period?  I have seen MS applied to new vehicles being sold abroad direct from manufacture/reserve stocks but, as I say, not for general disposals.

[10FM68]

4 hours ago, wally dugan said:

May be it was the equipment that was in it and it could not be moved under its own power

That's possible, I suppose as the vehicle in question was probably pretty static on the airfield though would need some sort of engine to power the office in the back even if unable to move itself.

[sirhc]

42 minutes ago, Mark Ellis said:

Would you have any of that list for stalwarts - registrations

23EK, 24EK,

60EP88, 60EP89, 61EP00

07ER, 08ER, 09ER, 10ER

16ET, 17ET. 18ET. 19ET, 20ET

89ET, 90ET, 91ET

at all please?

No, I only have this list as my Ferret 02CC84 is on it. 

[Mark Ellis]

23 minutes ago, sirhc said:

No, I only have this list as my Ferret 02CC84 is on it. 

Oh, ok.

So I guess you bought it from Withams, and they gave you this sheet? Or does the top line mean it was printed off by Withams?

I'd love to get my hands on the full MS list.

There's an ex Budge chap who has an old hard drive, which has an MS Dos file of stock - but the drive appears to be damaged

[Oh Five]

The Karrier Bantam would most likely have been "plugged into the aerodrome" for power and communications.  If something had happened to the vehicle mechanicals then it could have been towed into position.  As well as power for radios, hazard and signal lights it would be connected by phone to the controller in the Visual Control Room (the glass room on top of the controller tower) as well as, most likely, the fire station.  

The runway control caravans are used as a final visual check for departing aircraft and aircraft on final approach.

With the small numbers built with specialist bodywork and equipment perhaps it was kept as a trailer but why the ERM would have been changed I do not know.

Dan