Help identify please

[mark m uk]

Not used to Italian stuff, so really out of my depth with this -

 

 

 

I'm Guessing Fiat - SPA?

 

Any idea on model?

 

If one were offered such a beast - what would be a fair price?

[fesm_ndt]

Most of them have curved wings but half way down this page is a flat winged one http://guerra-abierta.blogspot.my/2014/01/tractor-italiano-tl-37.html?m=1

 

Maybe?

[mark m uk]

Thank you, Very useful link - I am sure that is the one.

 

I'm guessing that flat folded wings were a later production modification to improve speed of manufacture?

[fesm_ndt]

I don't know that much about them.... just found them interesting especially the one that looks like a Kubelwagen on steroids. I believe that model is quite rare.

 

Be nice to see some side shots. Is there other missing bits laying around?

 

RHD also which I thought nice.

 

I found some more piccies, but have to go to work... will put the links up when I get back

[mark m uk]

Thanks Mike,

 

i also like like it, and agree it is a rare beasty indeed - appreciate the reply, and pictures or links would be fantastic.

 

i wonder why it is RHD?

[morris c8 fat]

quite a few 30-40s Italian vehicles were R.H.D. I asked this question a few years ago didnt get a definet:red: answer though.:undecided:

[fesm_ndt]

several of the European states were RHD originally, Dutch was one of the others I believe

 

not a flat fender but some interesting details http://www.maquetland.com/article-phototheque/1708-spa-37-tl-trattore-d-artiglieria-

http://www.asphm.com/projets/projet_spa_as37/projet_spa_as37.html

http://www.auctionsamerica.com/events/feature-lots.cfm?SaleCode=MM12&ID=r1023

 

flat fenders oops wings

http://beutepanzer.ru/Beutepanzer/italy/truck/AS-43/as-43-1.htm

is curious, are flat wings first model, later or a German mod (as they used a lot of them)

 

This is the crown jewel in SPA rarity....... if you feel like a challenge (you got flat fenders so halfway there ) http://wargaming.info/1996/sahariana-qthe-desert-jeepq/#.VgJi13mhcdU

http://www.comandosupremo.com/sahariana.html

http://planetarmor.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3084

Edited September 23, 2015 by fesm_ndt

[mcspool]

several of the European states were RHD originally, Dutch was one of the others I believe

 

No, the Netherlands was LHD in right-hand traffic since basically the advent of the motor car.

 

From the quote on wikipedia I conclude the Italians could make up their mind

 

In modern Italy the practice of traffic driving on the right first began in the late 1890s, but it was not until the mid-1920s that it became standard throughout the country. There was a long period when traffic in the countryside drove on the right while major cities continued to drive on the left. Rome, for example, did not change from left to right until 20 October 1924. Milan was the last Italian city to change to driving on the right (3 August 1926). Cars had remained right-hand drive (RHD) until this time. Italian car makers Alfa Romeo and Lancia did not produce LHD cars until as late as 1950 and 1953, respectively.

 

Another reason for RHD on Italian Army vehicles I was told about, is that it was more useful on mountain roads.

 

Back to topic: I think it is a Fiat-SPA AS43. Nice find, are you going after it?

Edited September 23, 2015 by mcspool

[fesm_ndt]

Back to topic: I think it is a Fiat-SPA AS43. Nice find, are you going after it?

 

I was wondering if it might of been the truck or armoured truck version http://www.wikiwand.com/it/Fiat-SPA_AS43 not so many piccies as yet

 

Will be nice to see what other bits are in that barn...... they seem to use and alloy plate for ID. Now we need more piccies from the barn... and yes someone buy it

 

The Dutch, another black mark.......... I thought I had seen some older 1950 era DAF trucks that were RHD

[fesm_ndt]

Another variant http://www.regioesercito.it/mezzi/as43.htm

 

the 37 had steerable rear wheels, trying to figure out if the other variants also had or not

 

I like this

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]108208[/ATTACH]

[fesm_ndt]

similar to the previous one or same.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]108209[/ATTACH]

[mark m uk]

Thank you, really appreciate all the replies and research - yes, I am interested in acquiring the vehicle, for a restoration - I am not in a position to pay a fortune though, and not wanting to offend the seller that was kind enough to offer it to me, what would be a fair price to offer?

 

Thanks again,

Mark.

[fesm_ndt]

I guess it would depend on what other pieces are there and the cost of pieces to make or find and buy.

This complete 37 sold for 35000usd http://www.auctionsamerica.com/events/feature-lots.cfm?SaleCode=MM12&ID=r1023 If what is in your photos is what you get then the good points are, should be fairly cheap but have a lot of potential to make it like heaps of different variants as much of the tin work could be made.

 

Bad points, so far not sure about sourcing old SPA parts i.e. an engine, radiator, radiator cowl, windscreen frame. I was trying to find a resto blog but thus far no luck. Paul at Rustytrucks could give you a price on making or recreating missing panels etc

 

 

some more SPA ww2 piccies http://www.deutsches-afrika-korps.de/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=2680

 

http://historicaltimes.tumblr.com/post/117259086828/the-frozen-body-of-italian-soldiers-and-broken

[Sean N]

Mark, you could just sound him out as to what he'd like to get for it, and see if that tallies with your thinking. With all the missing panels etc. there's a lot of quite expensive work needed though.

[mark m uk]

Thank you again,

 

More fantastic pictures and great information - I guess if the value of a restored example is £20k ish, (35kUSD) that is the obvious starting point.

i cannot see the vehicle getting restored professionally for any less than that figure.

 

So, all that leaves is the option to not place any value on the man hours, and swallow that 'cost' - in any event, not going to be a fortunes made out of this, and more likely to be a money pit.

 

 

Mark, you could just sound him out as to what he'd like to get for it, and see if that tallies with your thinking. With all the missing panels etc. there's a lot of quite expensive work needed though.

 

I make you right, that is a pretty accurate summary.

I'm told that some of the panels are there, certainly the windshield is, so some very important panels for repair or patterns.

 

I'm thinking of offering a couple grand, + or - depending on what panels are there.

[fesm_ndt]

I think it all boils down to what is left hidden in that barn. Then make a list of parts needed.

 

My guess the engine was fitted to many vehicles and may be not to difficult to find. The radiator is i think not a major issue as the fancy bit on the top is a cover.

 

My guess is you could get a body made for less than 5k. So whilst you are restoring the chassis and other bits you can be searching for what can be found. Then at the end push the button on building a body.

 

I am curious about if the rear end on yours is steerable as the last few piccies i posted i doubt the rear wheels steer as there is a safety bar accross the rear wheels

[fesm_ndt]

http://www.milweb.net/webvert/78486

[mark m uk]

Wow!

 

You Sir, are a star - thank you.

 

Mark.

[Sean N]

The $35k US example you posted is probably not a good price guide as if you look at the photos closely it has evidently not been restored, just tarted up and blown over. This may have been done as a museum exhibit or it may have been done for sale. Either way, it isn't as good as it appears at first glance and it's in the US; it's likely Axis vehicles would fetch more over there than in Europe as they'll be less common.

 

In any case, you can't assume a general restored value from one or two examples.

 

To be honest, I can't help feeling the value of something like this is likely to be 'what you can get for it', which may be a lot or a little depending on who's in the market.

 

You probably should not reckon on making a fortune on it, or buy it with the sole aim of doing so; there are very few vehicles that repay their restoration costs and turn a profit.

 

Really, when valuing vehicles, there are a few ways

 

- what will it make restored, less the restoration cost (difficult to know as not enough are sold);

 

- what is the open market or book value (see above);

 

- what is it worth in scrap or in breaking value;

 

- what is it worth to you;

 

- what does the seller want.

 

If several of these tally, you know you're about right. If you have no idea about any of them, it comes down to how much you want it! If you do really want it and are interested for more than a quick profit then the answer to what it is worth is how much can you reasonably afford to pay for it without stretching yourself.

[mark m uk]

The $35k US example you posted is probably not a good price guide as if you look at the photos closely it has evidently not been restored, just tarted up and blown over. This may have been done as a museum exhibit or it may have been done for sale. Either way, it isn't as good as it appears at first glance and it's in the US; it's likely Axis vehicles would fetch more over there than in Europe as they'll be less common.

 

In any case, you can't assume a general restored value from one or two examples.

 

To be honest, I can't help feeling the value of something like this is likely to be 'what you can get for it', which may be a lot or a little depending on who's in the market.

 

You probably should not reckon on making a fortune on it, or buy it with the sole aim of doing so; there are very few vehicles that repay their restoration costs and turn a profit.

 

Really, when valuing vehicles, there are a few ways

 

- what will it make restored, less the restoration cost (difficult to know as not enough are sold);

 

- what is the open market or book value (see above);

 

- what is it worth in scrap or in breaking value;

 

- what is it worth to you;

 

- what does the seller want.

 

If several of these tally, you know you're about right. If you have no idea about any of them, it comes down to how much you want it! If you do really want it and are interested for more than a quick profit then the answer to what it is worth is how much can you reasonably afford to pay for it without stretching yourself.

 

Good post, very insightful, sums up nicely the dilemma of making an offer on something with an indeterminate value.

 

I don't have many vehicles in my collection, I don't 'deal' in vehicles - I build houses, and if I wanted to make money then I would just build another house and sell it - more profit in it.

 

I very rarely buy a vehicle, and even more rarely sell one. I never seek to buy a vehicle and only considered this because it was offered to me - I certainly wasn't looking for one.

The last vehicle I sold was a GPW, and the only reason I sold it was because I had another one, and the guy wanting to buy it had spent a year trying to buy one, was looking at a load of junk and I really didn't want to see him stiffed so sold him mine at a fair price.

 

Anyway, I like this one, would like to do it up, and would like to rally it. I figure as far as value is concerned it would 'break even' at best, maybe even 'lose' money in the short term but perhaps 'make a bit' in the long.

 

A couple grand is a fair bid in my opinion.

[mark m uk]

Well, two years later - I just got it home.

The seller was very helpful, honest and generous.

He was genuinely happy that it had gone to a good home.

 

Thanks to everyone on this thread that helped with opinions and information.

any more contributions of information would be greatly appreciated.

It is four wheel steer! 

[Enigma]

It may have taken a while but you have something rare now.

Can you post some pics?

[mark m uk]

[mark m uk]

Hi Enigma,

How are you feller? 

Here are a couple pictures.

It also have engine, hood, radiator, windshield and some body parts.

Any help with a positive identification of the type, would be greatly appreciated.

regards,

mark.

[Enigma]

On ‎8‎-‎11‎-‎2017 at 7:53 PM, mark m uk said:

Hi Enigma,

How are you feller? 

Here are a couple pictures.

It also have engine, hood, radiator, windshield and some body parts.

Any help with a positive identification of the type, would be greatly appreciated.

regards,

mark.

Thanks Mark

So, it will be ready soon? Witout kidding it looks great, hopefully you'll be able to scource any parts needed.