Martin Prior Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I restore and rebuild vintage vehicle woodwork and have recently taken delivery of the body from a customer's 1913 (or possibly 1912) 20hp Armstrong-Whitworth torpedo tourer. The car had been totally dismantled and put into store in around 1932 and appears to be in very original condition. The body is finished in a very military-looking matt dark khaki green. This has been fairly crudely applied over the original high-gloss grey coach enamel. The paper trail only starts in February 1921, when the car was registered as X7020 and sold to a private owner in Newcastle. It had supposedly been the Armstrong-Whitworth works "hack" before this. The question is, what was the car doing for its first eight or nine years? Just visible on the radiator core is the Northumberland registration BB1048, which could date from 1912/13. Is it possible that as a nearly-new car it had been requisitioned for military service? A-W were, of course, major suppliers to the forces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redherring Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Do you have photos of the rest of the vehicle? Thanks for posting such a fascinating conundrum. Paint colour? Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Prior Posted July 8, 2015 Author Share Posted July 8, 2015 Hi Robert. I don't have photos of anything other than the body at the moment. The car is still in a largely dismantled state, but is mechanically complete. For whatever reason, it was taken apart down to the last nut, bolt and screw in about 1932. When I collected it, the body looked like this.......... ............The owner thought that only about 50% of it was there and wanted me to see if there was enough left to re-create the rest. When I started to sort this jig-saw puzzle out I was amazed to find that it was 98% complete! I can't really describe the paint beyond what can be seen in the photos. There appears to be just one fairly thick coat, with an eggshell finish. The colour perhaps lacks the slightly yellowish hue that I've seen on some early military vehicles, but the surface has "bloomed" and so far I've done nothing more than sponge it down with water. The currently visible colour may not be what's actually there. If it is WW1 paint, then I want to proceed very cautiously, as I think that it should become a conservation job rather than a restoration. The owner in 1921 may possibly have had a connection with the Armstrong company or family and by 1925 it belonged to a Major Munro who had been wounded at Loos and Mametz Wood. It passed to his son in 1930 and was dismantled two years later for possible conversion into a pick-up truck. This never happened and it was eventually saved for preservation in 1960. Nothing was done to it until the present owner bought in, still in parts, about four years ago. I'm intrigued by the possible history of this car and any help in establishing what it was doing between 1913 and 1921 would be greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draganm Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Armstrong-Whitworth torpedo tourer, wow, coolest name EVER ! :laugh: The owner in 1921 may possibly have had a connection with the Armstrong company or family and by 1925 it belonged to a Major Munro who had been wounded at Loos and Mametz Wood. It passed to his son in 1930 and was dismantled two years later for possible conversion into a pick-up truck. seems like the place to start would be the surviving Munro's, they probably have pics of the major and the car as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Prior Posted July 8, 2015 Author Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) Armstrong-Whitworth torpedo tourer, wow, coolest name EVER ! :laugh: seems like the place to start would be the surviving Munro's, they probably have pics of the major and the car as well. The 1960 buyer purchased the car directly from Munro Junior and pumped him pretty thoroughly for any history. Unfortunately his knowledge of it only went back to 1925 when his father bought it. ..........and yes, a pretty cool name! Edited July 8, 2015 by Martin Prior Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 Now that is the sort of Jigsaw I like! You lucky ......... A lot of officers took private vehicles with them during the Great War, a follow on from the paractice of purchasing thier own horse and occasionaly they were 'Bought into service'. Can you get any more info on Major Munro? His service record, branch of the srvice etc might give more hints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redherring Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 I suspect that we have all dreamt of uncovering something like this. I'm amazed that a progression of owners understood the value of the pile of bits and stored them for such a long period of time. The photo of the bits is impressive. I like the idea of preserving it as-is; under the circumstances it looks in such great condition. And look forward to word/pic of progress... R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Prior Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 Now that is the sort of Jigsaw I like! You lucky ......... A lot of officers took private vehicles with them during the Great War, a follow on from the paractice of purchasing thier own horse and occasionaly they were 'Bought into service'. Can you get any more info on Major Munro? His service record, branch of the srvice etc might give more hints. Major James McVicar Munro, OBE, was in the Gordon Highlanders from 1914 until 1922. Wounded at Loos 26/9/15 and (I think) at Mametz Wood. He received his OBE "For services as Chemical Advisor". He sounds an interesting character, but as I mentioned before doesn't appear to have had any connection with the car before 1925. I'm supposed to be working on the body as the "day job", But I'm truly gripped by its shadowy history! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanter Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Fantastic opportunity there, please keep us updated with any news, not sure if this club may be able to help. http://www.siddeley.org/contact-us/ as they may have access to archives from the company? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Prior Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 I suspect that we have all dreamt of uncovering something like this. I'm amazed that a progression of owners understood the value of the pile of bits and stored them for such a long period of time. The photo of the bits is impressive. I like the idea of preserving it as-is; under the circumstances it looks in such great condition. And look forward to word/pic of progress... R Yes, whatever its origins it's a remarkable survivor. If some b***er hadn't at some point used a couple of the body panels as a source of sheet aluminium and also cut out a couple of lengths of ash framing for use elsewhere, it would be in near-perfect condition. These are both pretty minor issues, though. The mechanical condition is very similar. At some time it's had major front-end damage; one of the dumb-irons, though repaired, is about 1" shorter than the other. Everything else seems to be in good order. Why on earth it was so completely dismantled and the parts then kept together for so long, I have no idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Prior Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 Fantastic opportunity there, please keep us updated with any news, not sure if this club may be able to help. http://www.siddeley.org/contact-us/ as they may have access to archives from the company? Steve Thanks, Steve. If the owner hasn't already, I'll follow that up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charawacky Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 A very interesting project You may wish to contact the Beamish Museum as they have a AW replica and so must have had info to build it. http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Armstrong_Whitworth:_Cars Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Prior Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 A very interesting project You may wish to contact the Beamish Museum as they have a AW replica and so must have had info to build it. http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Armstrong_Whitworth:_Cars Tom Thanks, Tom. I believe that the owner of "our" car has looked at both the Beamish and the Newcastle Museum cars, but didn't glean anything very useful from either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draganm Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 [ATTACH=CONFIG]105841[/ATTACH] hmmm? never heard of a "scuttle dash" before, anyone know what that is? Love the velvet and pile carpet too. I assume a 1-man hood simple means a hood with a hinge? these cars are pretty amazing to see though, a friend has a 1924 willy's coupe here and it looks like a horse-drawn wagon that someone unhitched the horses from and dropped in a crude 4 cylinder engine. Wooden spoked wheels : ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Prior Posted July 9, 2015 Author Share Posted July 9, 2015 hmmm? never heard of a "scuttle dash" before, anyone know what that is? Love the velvet and pile carpet too. I assume a 1-man hood simple means a hood with a hinge? these cars are pretty amazing to see though, a friend has a 1924 willy's coupe here and it looks like a horse-drawn wagon that someone unhitched the horses from and dropped in a crude 4 cylinder engine. Wooden spoked wheels : ) There may be a problem with transatlantic terminology here! The scuttle is the section of the body between the windscreen (windshield) and the bonnet (hood), so I assume that a "scuttle dash" is effectively an instrument panel in the position that we're familiar with today. Over here, the hood means the roof (top)! I assume that this one was simpler and lighter than most in the pre-1914 period and suitable for one-man operation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) The Major does sound a very intresting person. Must start doing some nosing about. Nothing wrong with finding your job intresting, wish I did with mine, any way! Provenence, adds to a vehicle value, not to mention fascinating. Edited July 9, 2015 by Tony B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11th Armoured Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Why on earth it was so completely dismantled and the parts then kept together for so long, I have no idea. Part of a divorce settlement - "no dear, the car went ages ago - check the garage if you don't believe me..." Seriously though, that looks to be a wonderful project to be involved with! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Prior Posted July 10, 2015 Author Share Posted July 10, 2015 The Major does sound a very intresting person. Must start doing some nosing about. Nothing wrong with finding your job intresting, wish I did with mine, any way! Provenence, adds to a vehicle value, not to mention fascinating. Hi Tony. If it's of any use, the Major's National Archive reference is WO339/23764, former ref.44178. In 1925 his address was 7 Stephenson Terrace, Wylam, Northumberland. If you turn up anything interesting, please let me know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Will do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Larkin Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 I'm doubtful that it was requisitioned by the military. I've not come across any requisitioned cars and the War Office seem to have purchased cars outright from the start. It is possible that it belonged to an officer as, as Tony says, officers took their own cars just as the cavalry officers took their own horses. It may then have been 'taken over' by the military in France for maintenance and running costs. It may of course only been used in the UK as the military had huge numbers of lorries, cars etc for the home front. My feeling is that if (and its a very big if) that it ever went to France that it was with the original BEF. 'New' officers of companies formed as the BEF expanded would have used the car issued to whichever company they were with. In that case, its very unlikely to have been used as cars were being bought new and the Armstrong-Whitworth was 'non-standard', so would have been kept for the UK, unless somebody had taken it with the BEF as his own property. Having said all that, it is WW1 and that has a habit of throwing up bits of information that totally contradict anything and everything known so far. There was an Armstrong-Whitworth ambulance at Kempton Park disposal site in February 1919, but that has registration number AB 1401, (not WD number) so that only served on the home front. Fascinating project though and I look forward to seeing how progress goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Don't it just Roy! As far as the Great War goes you know something, right up to the time you find out something diffrent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Prior Posted July 13, 2015 Author Share Posted July 13, 2015 Thanks for your interesting reply, Roy. Perhaps, post-war, Major Munro was simply trying to maintain his military image by creating a staff car lookalike! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Robertson Posted November 30, 2022 Share Posted November 30, 2022 Hi, I am afraid you may no longer looking at this site or even have the car in question, but I have a photo that might interest you.https://photos.google.com/search/_tra_/photo/AF1QipPPsIed2PNsiJcHqOXsL9pUrO9YE_X6_sdPslcZ Is it a Amstrong-Whitworth Torpedo? The only difference I can find is that the wheel arches are flat when they ought to be rounded, and the windscreen is different from pictures I have seen, but otherwise it looks pretty similar. I am not expert on cars, particularly veteran (vintage?) ones. I don't have the registration plate, but I can date the picture at 1914, maybe 1915. I also know all about the driver - he is Francis John Childs Ganzoni, MP for Ipswich from 1914-37, and, he claimed, the first MP without war experience to go to the trenches. He served at the front and in Parliament for much of the war, first going there in November 1914. He used the car to campaign in during the 1914 election and celebrated his victory doing a grand tour of the town in it garlanded in flowers. I don't know absolutely whether he drove it to France, but I would think he did - he had to get quickly from France to Westminster for debates and I imagine getting rapidly to the Channel Ports from his base on the Western Front would have needed a car. He served with the British Expeditionary Force, in the 4th Suffolks at the Battle of Neuve Chapelle. However, by February 1915 he was in hospital in Boulogne suffering from pneumonia and frostbite. He was promoted to Captain in 1915 and posted to the quartermaster-general's services in York in 1917, returning to the British expeditionary force in 1918 to be made an Aide de Camp of the Personal Staff. He was gassed twice, but was at home with frostbite when many of his relatives died at the Somme. He was not short of funds. His father was a millionaire having made a fortune in sugar broking. He married in the late twenties, was made the First Lord Belstead and had two children - both were unmarried and Jill the eldest died earlier this year. John, the second Lord Belstead died in 2005. So the real question is do you, or did you, have Jack Ganzoni's car? I am not sure how you will find out. Let me know your thoughts. Best wishes Jamie Robertson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Robertson Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 Hello again, if you are reading this. Bad news and good news. The bad news is that I have found another picture of the car and even though you can only see a tiny part of the number plate it definitely starts DX, which is the Ipswich area number (unsurprisingly as he was the Ipswich MP) so it seems unlikely to be connected to yours. The slightly better news is that you can see the marque on the radiator grill and it is definitely an Armstrong Whitworth. A Torpedo? I would have thought almost definitely. I will attach the photo. It is taken a year or so earlier. Jack doesn't have a military moustache and at this stage is a (very wealthy) barrister. Sorry to get you hopes up. Whatever, you have a potentially amazing car on your hands. Best wishes Jamie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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