wdbikemad Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 A Size 8 "BMC" made green 60s 1963 patt "SAS" smock finished on Ebay this morning at £88........well used looking at the pics, a few repairs, but the real deal........... I didn't bid...........odd, when I'm seeking one for the collection, but having my new size 4 trousers, perhaps I'm holding out for something better to came along....? (it invariably will if you're patient)...........:undecided: It wasn't the price either (I would have paid more)....just wasn't inclined to bid for a change..........anyone on here see it / win it....???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 A Size 8 "BMC" made green 60s 1963 patt "SAS" smock finished on Ebay this morning at £88........well used looking at the pics, a few repairs, but the real deal........... I didn't bid...........odd, when I'm seeking one for the collection, but having my new size 4 trousers, perhaps I'm holding out for something better to came along....? (it invariably will if you're patient)...........:undecided: It wasn't the price either (I would have paid more)....just wasn't inclined to bid for a change..........anyone on here see it / win it....???? Strange Steve - I saw that too and I too just couldn't bring myself to bid on it. Perhaps THE key piece that I am missing in my collection yet it just didn't seem compelling enough. I may regret that some day but not today....:-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 It's a funny old world sometimes.......:-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebuckster Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 hi ,,does any one have either a royal navy ventil smock for sale ,, or a 1960s sas sbs canoeist smock green ,, as i m looking to buy both if around , cheers matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunner501 Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) Here she is Gents ,the fabric is exactly as on late WW2 JUNGLE UNIFORMS ! Edited April 24, 2013 by gunner501 typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunner501 Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 The smock shows good hard use but as one would expect and if anything give this garment a more historic apperance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunner501 Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunner501 Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Draw cord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Interesting! Looks in much better condition in these pics than in the original listing...perhaps I missed a trick there! In any case this is one of the last pieces of kit I want to complete my collection.....guess I will keep looking.:red: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunner501 Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 (edited) Yes the sellers pics were c**p and did his sale no good ,but did me a huge favour .These smocks seem to crop up in quite a few photos of SAS Guys in the 70,s are these possibly earlier than the DPM Versions ? Edited April 24, 2013 by gunner501 typos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Yes - I am almost certain that these pre-date the DPM version. Interestingly though both carry exactly the same NSNs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunner501 Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Heres the label on my 63 pattern and yes your,e right it,s the same NSN .I also get the feeling the green smocks earlier but am not knowledgable enough on the scince of some of this coding etc etc . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Do you have the matching DPM 63 Patt trousers by chance? If so it would be great to see some pics.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunner501 Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Alas I have no trousers for either of the smocks but heres some more pics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted April 26, 2013 Author Share Posted April 26, 2013 The 63 pattern first appeared during 1964.....it was a standardisation of the full-zip design (as per the 59 pattern Denison) and there is a possibility that the very first models were in the old wartime cammo.......... First common issues of the green 63 windproof suit started in 1964 and the last were made during 1970.........fabric was the usual 100% cotton-gabardine.......... During 1970-71 the DPM version was introduced alongside the same cammo for the rest of the Army.......it was intended to replace the green version......the DPM version lasted on issue up to 1975-76 when the "Smock, Windproof, Camouflage" replaced it.........the DPM 63 pattern suit was made in the heavier cotton combat smock fabric rather than the lightweight gabardine..... So the green suit dates between 64 and 70, the DPM version between 70 and 75-76......... Oddly, the same NSN's were used for the green and DPM versions........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunner501 Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 The 63 pattern first appeared during 1964.....it was a standardisation of the full-zip design (as per the 59 pattern Denison) and there is a possibility that the very first models were in the old wartime cammo.......... First common issues of the green 63 windproof suit started in 1964 and the last were made during 1970.........fabric was the usual 100% cotton-gabardine.......... During 1970-71 the DPM version was introduced alongside the same cammo for the rest of the Army.......it was intended to replace the green version......the DPM version lasted on issue up to 1975-76 when the "Smock, Windproof, Camouflage" replaced it.........the DPM 63 pattern suit was made in the heavier cotton combat smock fabric rather than the lightweight gabardine..... So the green suit dates between 64 and 70, the DPM version between 70 and 75-76......... Oddly, the same NSN's were used for the green and DPM versions........ THAT,S GREAT INFO THANKS FOR POSTING ! The full zip info is intresting in that there seems to be as well as items made to this standard others that were brought up to this spec, ie as you say WW2 Windproofs and IMO Smocks Denison many size 7 ww2 smocks can be found with post war full length zips fitted these often still being near mint with a red ex over the label . behind the zip is a flap of cloth made from often three pieces of fabric joined some in camo and others in denim . Did the very pink smocks produced post ww2 have full zips as a standard ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted April 26, 2013 Author Share Posted April 26, 2013 THAT,S GREAT INFO THANKS FOR POSTING ! The full zip info is intresting in that there seems to be as well as items made to this standard others that were brought up to this spec, ie as you say WW2 Windproofs and IMO Smocks Denison many size 7 ww2 smocks can be found with post war full length zips fitted these often still being near mint with a red ex over the label . behind the zip is a flap of cloth made from often three pieces of fabric joined some in camo and others in denim . Did the very pink smocks produced post ww2 have full zips as a standard ???? I've seen a post-war cammo windproof seemingly factory made with a full-length zipper and windflap beneath dated as early as 1954............I think the 63 pattern was an official attempt to regulate the full-zip pattern as similar to the 59 pattern Denison.........? I have the full WD manufacturing specs for the latter which still specify the half-zip into the 50s (plus a return to woolen cuffs !!)............this spec is dated 1952.......I guess apart from manufacturers, many units locally modified windproofs and Denisons with unit tailors to the full-zip pattern.......:-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetOp Pete Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 ...Oddly, the same NSN's were used for the green and DPM versions........ Hi. Not sure why you say "oddly". Although I am not a cataloguer, my employer is a defence manufacturer, and we sometimes update the configuration of parts without having to do all the form-filling required to get a new NSN assigned. Cataloguing is something of a "black art" but there seems to be a fair bit of latitude for an OEM to change a design as long as the "form, fit, and function" remain the same. Hence, swapping from green to DPM fabric wouldn't involve bending rules just to keep the same NSN -- and it would save a lot of folks in the supply chain unnecessary work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted April 28, 2013 Author Share Posted April 28, 2013 Hi. Not sure why you say "oddly". Although I am not a cataloguer, my employer is a defence manufacturer, and we sometimes update the configuration of parts without having to do all the form-filling required to get a new NSN assigned. Cataloguing is something of a "black art" but there seems to be a fair bit of latitude for an OEM to change a design as long as the "form, fit, and function" remain the same. Hence, swapping from green to DPM fabric wouldn't involve bending rules just to keep the same NSN -- and it would save a lot of folks in the supply chain unnecessary work. It's "odd" for the era Pete, particularly pre-computer and in respect of clothing. Although some items did receive the same stores reference as another garment or item on an upgrade, it was pretty unusual. The DPM 1960 pattern smock that appeared during 1970 to replace the green was identical in cut save for the colouring but received a different NSN allocation along with the trousers. When the 1968 pattern gear was modified in the mid-late 70s by improvements to the fabric a new block of NSNs were issued........the only thing I can think of for the 63 pattern green and DPM sharing the same NSNs is that one simply replaced the other........although it's also worth noting that when first introduced around 1964 the green 63 pattern smock and trousers had the old WD stores coding, NSN's not really appearing on most kit until the late 1960s.........I guess the answer will remain unknown....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetOp Pete Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Thank you Steve. I'm not old enough to recall the golden age when cockups couldn't be blamed on computers. But I've seen many examples of oddities such as one item having two NSNs and manufacturers putting the wrong CAGE on labels to be suspicious of anything that involves co-ordination between industry and government. It is difficult to tell when some things are simply an anomaly and when they were intended. You're probably right the NSN stayed the same because the DPM was a straightforward replacement for the green. It makes the most sense, and unless there is a paper trail hiding somewhere in an archive we can't know for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Cock-ups on NSNs have been happening for years!: http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?29436-1960-Pattern-Trousers-C-W-Son&highlight=1960+son+cable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted April 28, 2013 Author Share Posted April 28, 2013 Cock-ups on NSNs have been happening for years!: http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?29436-1960-Pattern-Trousers-C-W-Son&highlight=1960+son+cable Probably easier to have some bod in the factory sitting there with a biro in front of a huge stack of incorrectly-marked trousers than to remake a shed load of labels and then re-apply......!!!! :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotch Harry Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161018496068?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 So who did a sly one and bought this Off Ebay?:undecided: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevpol Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161018496068?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 So who did a sly one and bought this Off Ebay?:undecided: not me....wish it was though!! Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enfield1940 Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 I spotted that not long after it was listed and compared it with the pics earlier in this thread. But likewise it wasn't me - the condition and starting price wasn't really leaping at me and early DPM tends to float my boat more than OG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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