unionjack Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 I've just removed the dipstick to discover it covered in a medium grey sludge. The head gasket had been replaced just before I bought it and I have only driven it a couple of miles. So apart from being thoroughly p****d off about it, I'm wondering what the likely reason is? I wonder if the head was simply not tightened enough? Trouble is to test that theory after tightening them i'd need to drain, flush, and refill with oil, only to possible discover it not cured and oil is expensive these days. What else? cracked head? cracked block? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 I'd be tempted to do a compression test first of all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Ashby Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 I think the first question to ask is have you lost any water from the cooling system ?. If the engine has not been run for long periods or been left to idle in cold weather without reaching full operating temperature condensation can build up inside the crankcase and contaminate the oil. The second question would perhaps be why was the head gasket replaced in the first place :undecided:. It's always better to ask and answer the simple questions first before taking everything apart . Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbrook Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 I fear that you will now get everything from the simple and optimistic to the doom laden.....My experience is that internet diagnosis is fraught and flawed so the first comment is dont panic Mr Mannering. I have said before that I could write a book about head gaskets but my starting point is that on an engine like this gaskets dont fail, other things cause them to fail. A new head gasket always rings alarm bells for me, and my reaction is always to ask why it failed in the first place and what was done to rectify it. So first have a conversation with your vendor. Expect trouble if the answers to the above questions are don't know and nothing. Next leave the truck standing for a day or so then crack the drain plug off and carefully unscrew it with a container underneath - if there is lots of water in the oil that will come out first - dont take the plug right out at this point the water will weep past the last couple of threads. Feel free to enjoy the feeling of cold gunge running up your sleeve as you hold the plug in just the right place to ensure flow but not deluge. If its more than half a jamjar full you have more than condensation to worry about; the next step will be to get the head off etc etc etc. If its only a tiny amount of water it could still be a big problem but get some fresh oil in there and give the thing a decent amount of time to run. Get some Kseal in the coolant as well - you may get lucky if there is a small defect and it may sort you out. Check the head torque too. If after this you still have grey gunge then its toolbox time. The list of possible worst case issues is rather lengthy I fear, but short of a major catastropy can all be cured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauren Child Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Is k-seal (or any other cooling system sealant) OK in non-pressurised cooling systems? I've been wondering if the open air would cause a skin to develop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Is k-seal (or any other cooling system sealant) OK in non-pressurised cooling systems? I've been wondering if the open air would cause a skin to develop. K-seal will work in both pressurised and non-pressurised. It will stay dormant in the system until a weep occurs. Not like the old time remedy of what looked like something a dog had left behind, for those not familiar, I mean Barseal. That stuff will block a radiator, i have seen where people have added a few more to try and cure a problem only to give themselves a bigger problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauren Child Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 K-seal will work in both pressurised and non-pressurised. It will stay dormant in the system until a weep occurs. Not like the old time remedy of what looked like something a dog had left behind, for those not familiar, I mean Barseal. That stuff will block a radiator, i have seen where people have added a few more to try and cure a problem only to give themselves a bigger problem. Thanks Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unionjack Posted January 20, 2013 Author Share Posted January 20, 2013 Thanks chaps, I was told the water level was fine but didn't check it myself. Water was pushed out of the cap after about a mile. I thought it was just finding it's own level after being overfilled. Yesterday I poured a whole gallon in and still can't see any water. The sludge on the dipsitick looks worse than condensation to me. Also when I started the engine there was no oil pressure. I tried twice and waited a few seconds each time, but on choke I was risking it no more than that. I do have a compression tester, but I'm not doing it until the weather improves as I'm laid up with a cold. What can the results tell me? I will do the re-torque (70lb?) re-oil and K-seal thing though I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 The head gasket had been replaced just before I bought it and I have only driven it a couple of miles. I have just seen your last post and gone back to the start. As Paul says, diagnosis by internet is not always conclusive, but in my experience, given enough information it can put you on the right track, so here goes. You say the head gasket was renewed just before you bought the Bedford. It is quite possible that the person who did this may have made the classic mistake of not checking the head face for bowing. This will not be cured by re-tightening. regards, Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbrook Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 It may not even be the right head gasket... Dan and I once put a head gasket out of what was supposed to be the correct gasket set into a CJ3 jeep. All looked perfect and on went the head. In went the coolant. Rather a lot of it as it happens and the "gallon" comment struck me as familiar. Water trickling out of the tailpipe is a dead giveaway that things are not well so off came the head again. Much head (sorry) scratching ensued until the gasket was tried on the underside of the head. It was at this point we realised that the head gasket was actually for a go devil not a hurricane engine, the blocks of which are virtually identical. The heads though are completely different and the flathead gasket covered outlets it shouldn't and left uncovered other holes it should have covered. With the proper gasket in everything was hunky dory. The brand new flathead gasket hangs in the workshop as a reminder that everything is not always as it seems. Sad to say though that it is difficult to see a way forward at this point that does not involve removing the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Ashby Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 The fact you apparently have no oil pressure is a little confusing as it should, all things being equal, have no bearing on your cooling issue. As Paul and Richard note diagnostics via the web can be fraught with confusion, however before you remove the head try a compression test. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Ashby Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 One thought occurs to me, and I apologize if it seems obvious......... with the current weather you have got antifreeze in the system ? Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unionjack Posted January 21, 2013 Author Share Posted January 21, 2013 I panicked yesterday when it occurred to me I had no idea whether anti-freeze was in or not. Obviously it should have but you never know. That's when I discovered the level was way down as I couldn't use my tester. Neither the tap on the thermostat housing or the bottom of the rad would work, but could just be blocked. Anyway, I could just about squash in the top hose and spotted a slight leak from the block tap (snapped) so that was liquid at least and it tasted a little sweet. So fingers crossed it's okay in that respect. I have added a little more anti-freeze since. But, even if it had frozen, and cracked something (god forbid) the water wouldn't have mixed with the oil without being run. Also, as said, I see no link between any of this and the lack of oil pressure (even if the pickup is sat in water/sludge i'd still expect it to work). I was told the head had been cleaned, tested for level, crack tested, and valves ground in, but I can not confirm. What will a compression test reveal? Are the gaskets copper (and therefore re-usable?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbrook Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 (edited) Anti freeze is as you say a red herring in the gasket issue, although it was definitely worth checking. My dad used to say that as long as there was some anti freeze in the mix the coolant would never go solid. I now know that to be wrong (but then it was minus 18..) Second is oil pressure - two observations if I may. The first is that unlike modern vehicles with modern gauges the pressure may well take more than a few seconds to register on the clock, so unless you have run it for more than that I would not worry too much at this stage. The second is that water plus oil in an emulsion may be causing the pump to cavitate or any one of half a dozen reasons why the dial sits on its stop. Plus of course the dial may be bust or some other issue. To eliminate the oil pressure concern from our enquiries my approach would be to drain the coolant off and get fresh oil in. Remove or at least slacken off the oil pressure guage pipe from the block and start her up. An engine like this will be quite happy running for a minute or two without any coolant as long as it isnt thrashed. I would be looking for a good flow of oil out of that pipe and clamping it back up should result in a reading. I have even done it with my finger over the hole which gives a good idea of pressure (my finger is able to hold back about 20psi...after that things can get a bit messy but in this case thats a very good sign) . Hope that helps...keep us posted! Edited January 21, 2013 by paulbrook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLUF Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 surly advising someone to put their finger over anything that produces pressure is risky to say the least, poisoning can be caused by doing so, even with as a little as 5 psi it can cause the liquid to penetrate through the skin, causing at least dermatitis or at worst gangrene.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbrook Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 (edited) Fair comment I did say that I had even done it like that; the inference being that it was done in extremis. I am not sure that consitutes advice. If however you are minded to emulate it then you may wish to consider wearing decent gloves. By far the best approach though is the one I described, that is to slacken but not completely remove the pipe. As long as there is decent flow out then things are looking good. Edited January 21, 2013 by paulbrook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unionjack Posted January 22, 2013 Author Share Posted January 22, 2013 Not simply a dud gauge as the orange light was lit too and anyway I could hear the lack of pressure, not nice! Thanks for the advice everyone. As I said it's going to be slow progress 'cos it's horrible out there and I feel like death warmed up. It may be a case of in for a penny in for a pound and remove head, sump, and pump for cleaning/checking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unionjack Posted July 28, 2013 Author Share Posted July 28, 2013 Update (about time too!): Removed sump plug, 1/2 a jam jar of clean water came out followed by two gallons of grey sludge. Removed all spark plugs. All six are clean but black. No sign of rusting. Started to dismantle engine and can clearly see the head gasket is new as it's clean edges. Removed rocker cover. Rusting to top of vale gear and clean water lying on top of head in puddles. Now, just a thought, but let me run this by you... The rubber gaskets around the two rocker gasket bolts were falling to bits, and they are positioned directly under the bonnet centre hinge. As this is basically open to let the rain through to the top of the engine, it is just possible it's been sitting on the rocker cover and running in past the bolts. Anyone ever experienced this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
25 pounder Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 I had a similar case , altough not with an old military vehicle but a 13 year old Ford Transit. The van had been out in the open, for several days in havy rain . This one had a circular air filter on top of the engine , with on big screw to keep the cover on the filter; When we tried to start the engine , it felt as it was blocked , not doing anything but "clack" Knowing that nothing happened , no one had touched the car since , and it wouldn't start. what had happened , the fibre washer under the cover screw had totally worn out and let all the water drip in the engine , sump and even on the pistons, I guess about 10 liters of water came out of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unionjack Posted July 29, 2013 Author Share Posted July 29, 2013 Removed the oil strainer today. Photo should be attached. It aint pretty. These should be cleaned each time the oil is changed, how long ago do you think this one was cleaned? :shocked: There is hardly any oil around the valve gear, inside the rocker cover is dry, inside the breather pipe is dry... not good signs are they? Time for sump off, oil pump off, pick-up pipe and strainer off... sideplate off... feedpipe to rocker shaft off... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unionjack Posted July 29, 2013 Author Share Posted July 29, 2013 (edited) Removed the oil strainer today. Photo attached. It aint pretty. These should be cleaned each time the oil is changed, how long ago do you think this one was cleaned? :shocked: [ATTACH=CONFIG]79947[/ATTACH] (click). There is hardly any oil around the valve gear, inside the rocker cover is dry, inside the breather pipe is dry... not good signs are they? Time for sump off, oil pump off, pick-up pipe and strainer off... sideplate off... feedpipe to rocker shaft off... Edited July 30, 2013 by unionjack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rampant rivet Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 (edited) That looks a bit like the one I removed from my engine it was covered in gunge and lots of grass seeds and hadn't been cleaned in years seem they get overlooked somewhat :wow: Edited August 9, 2013 by rampant rivet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unionjack Posted July 30, 2013 Author Share Posted July 30, 2013 Glad it's not just mine then! Most of the gunk on it appears to be red oxide paint flakes. I removed the sump today and it looks like the inside if the block has been painted red oxide at some point. What sort of loony would do that? Sump was full of grey gunge. I've removed the oil pump, opened it up, and discovered the pressure relief valve is missing! The coil spring is there, but no little rod thingy. :shocked: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unionjack Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 Having now cleaned and stripped the pump I can see that of course the pressure relief valve is in there, it was just stuck in the gunk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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