robin craig Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Dear All, posting this on behalf of a mate who owns this truck. What was C/S 38G? How were the zap codes applied / handed out? When did the BATUS fleet go from sand + green to just Sand What is the paint code for sand? Is there a vinyl rag top available for the vehicle? Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robin craig Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Bumpity bump R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recymech66 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Dear All, posting this on behalf of a mate who owns this truck. What was C/S 38G? How were the zap codes applied / handed out? When did the BATUS fleet go from sand + green to just Sand What is the paint code for sand? Is there a vinyl rag top available for the vehicle? Robin Robin, BATUS went from sand/green to just sand about 3 to 4 years ago. Zap numbers are applied using a rectangle or square patch of matt black with the numbers in white painted on the vehicle in various locations depending on what vehicle it is. Are you sure the C/S is 38G and not G38? Artilllery use the Golf prefix on their callsigns. Sorry can't help with the NSN/code for the sand paint. (Although that's really lazy of me, wait out and I'll email my mate over there). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robin craig Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Call sign is correct, that is what is on the vehicle. In my older pictures there never were zap numbers, just call signs. When did zap numbers start? Paint code from your mate will be good R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recymech66 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Call sign is correct, that is what is on the vehicle. In my older pictures there never were zap numbers, just call signs. When did zap numbers start? Paint code from your mate will be good R Thought I was going mad when I said G38 but see pic below, anyway not sure which sub unit your mates rover belonged to. Also see pic below for Zap number location, can't help on when these were first used unfortunately. I've mailed my mate in Canada who will ring the paint shop and get the NSN for the paint for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienFTM Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) What was C/S 38G? How were the zap codes applied / handed out? Under the Post-1982 system, there were no callsigns with numbers greater than 4 or letters greater than hmmm either C or D. (I moved out of a radio-centric role at exactly that time and worked on a very quiet, HF Divisional Logistics Net. Memory suggests that every non-control call-sign had an alpha suffix A - D. But don't quote me, I was out of the loop.) Apart from prefixes that were theoretically daily-changing. It had been determined that because the front-line net structures all varied slightly, it was possible that enemy electronic support units could derive what type of unit was on a net. Especially since pre-1982, prefixes were semi-hard-coded as follows: India: Infantry. Kilo: Infantry alternate. Tango: Armour (tanks and recce). Uniform: Armour alternate. Golf: Artillery (guns: see pic). Whiskey: Artillery alternate. Echo: Engineers. Foxtrot: Engineers alternate. Alpha: Aviation. Bravo: Airborne / Special Forces (what a coincidence that on Op Granby, three SAS patrols took the call signs B10, B20 and B30) and so on. The reason for this ordering is that this was the ordering of answering in a mixed-arms battlegroup or combat team. This was a very strict discipline. If you have played for example Call of Duty or World of Tanks with half a dozen mukkers and all had to shout over one another, you'll know the chaos. On radio, however, strongest signal wins. Only one person can talk at a time and it could lead to an interview without coffee if you interrupted the OC. Brevity was also therefore key. Operators had to learn IKTUGWEFA as an aide to order of answering. This put the combat units first where they logically would be. The reason there were Infantry, Armour, Artillery and Engineers alternatives was because a combat team might include the same unit-internal call sign from two different units, for example a troop of 3RTR Chieftains c/s 24 and a troop of 15/19H Scorpions, also c/s 24. Thus one would be designated by CTHQ as T24, the other as U24. It didn't help that umpires usually took the Uniform prefix, but that's another story. So to unit internal call signs, pre-1982, since your vehicle contains an 8. They were theoretically carved in stone, but ... I'll use armour as an example. First digit indicated the squadrons. Sabre, (ie combat squadrons A, B, C and maybe D) would take the first digit 1 - 4 depending how many were on the orbat (order of battle). 6 indicated Recce. Close Recce squadron of the Armd Recce Regt took callsign 6 so that when detached to their various BGs, the 6 c/s fitted into that BG's net without having to be rejigged. HQ Squadron would take 8 and Command Troop 9. C/s 9 was the CO. 9A would have been 2ic It blurs with age: 91 - 94 comprised I think Ops Officer, Adjutant, Liaison Officer, Regimental Signals Officer. RSM was c/s 95; two rebro Ferrets were 98 and 98A (me ;o) Sabre squadrons: second digit indicated the troop (1 - 4, maybe 5) and a support troop (which were called over my time alone Assault Troop, Guided Weapons Troop and Surveillance Troop) callsign x6. Troop leaders took the troop callsign, eg 21, 22, 23, 24. Troop Sergeant eg 24A Troop Corporal eg 24B Troop Second Corporal (usually a Lance Corporal) 24C Sabre troops usually had three or four vehicles. At any level, 7 was a spare call sign so that when for example with the NI Armd Car/ Armd Recce Regt the squadrons rotated between Omagh and Fermanagh, the Fermanagh squadron HQ took the call sign 7. (Troops continued to use their own squadron call signs.) Within the squadron or company, the 8 suffix was REME. So that the B Sqn Artificer ("Tiffy") was c/s 28. Even though armoured units had huge numbers of radios, the REME Light aid Detachment (LAD) did not. I was never aware of any 28x call signs.* As with the Command element at Regiment / Batallion / BG level, the command element at squadron / company / combat team level involved a 9. Squadron leader was eg 29, 2ic was 29A, Second Captain (a role never filled in peacetime: it allowed for an extra watch keeper in wartime) 29B, SSM 29C, SQMS 29D. It went on. I stand to be corrected. 29E was squadron ambulance, 29F A echelon, 29G B echelon. So to your c/s 38G. I initially read it as 39G and translated it as C Sqn B echelon - which would have been a Land Rover. But 38G? I never had the pleasure of BATUS (in a Recce Regt we could exercise pretty much anywhere: only the close recce troops went to BATUS with the BGs they were attached to). My best guess is that in BATUS where the structure was as full and undeviating-from-norm as possible, 38G was a REME Land Rover. ---ooo0ooo--- Zap codes. not something I was ever intimate with, but ... Despite being able to qualify a callsign by appointment indicator*, it is sometimes necessary to specify an exact single person. Say Lance Corporal Snooks's wife has gone into seriously premature labour and they need to get him off the exercise RIGHT NOW. LCpl Snooks is nominally the troop leader's operator. He might therefore be referred to as Pronto of c/s 24. However, unbeknownst to the control signaller, during the night the commander of 24B was taken ill and medevaced. LCpl Snooks is the troop's designated spare commander, so he's jumped into the troop corporal's wagon and now answers to Sunray of c/s 24B and a spare body, Trooper Grimes out of the back of a Surveillance Troop Spartan has been bumped to Pronto of c/s 24. The last thing Trooper Grimes needs is to be told his wife has been rushed to the MRS while LCpl Snooks revels at finally getting a command for the rest of the exercise, unaware that his wife is on life support and has lost his baby. Worse, in wartime or a big exercise, there is a fatality. Troop leader reports it up the line to Squadron, on to Command Troop who phone camp and send the padre round to tell the wrong wife her husband just died ... The whole purpose of zap codes is to identify exactly one single person absolutely without compromising his personal security (PerSec). It might be random. It might be best it it were alphabetical to make it quicker and easier to look up, but Tpr Adams will still be for example Zap 01 (on whatever zap list he is on) as he progresses through the ranks to half colonel and there will never be a clue as to who he is outside of the zap list. One thing that has long intrigued me. At Bovvy you can see iirc the CO's command tank of Scots DG from one sandpit or another. On the turret side is a list of zap numbers. I have always wondered whether the value of this is worth the breach of PerSec in that every crew member's name is in clear for all to see. ___________________________________________________ * There was also an entire dictionary of Appointment Indicators that might be used in parallel with call signs. It was possible to qualify a call thus: "Hello 24 this is 2 fetch Sunray over." Sunray indicated the senior person at that call sign, ie FHQ wanted to talk to the troop leader, not his operator. If he'd wanted to speak personally to the operator he'd have said: "Hello 24 this is 2 fetch Pronto over." Sunray could be qualified as Sunray minor (the 2ic). Appointment indicators did not replace call signs, they supplemented them. To get REME assistance, it was normal to report for example: "Hello 2 this is 24A I have broken down at Grid 4SAFC (sent in the code of the day: Griddle, Universal Griddle, Mapco, Batco were all current during my time. There was also Slidex but it was a higher level code.) and require BLUEBELL (REME) assistance.' Then leave FHQ to get in touch with the LAD, who weren't as precious about remaining on air at all times as were the sabre troops. Edited February 16, 2012 by AlienFTM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienFTM Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 When did zap numbers start? Looking at the pic and the thread, I suspect in my previous post I am referring do a different system of zap numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 What is the paint code for sand? Robin not quite sure what you mean by "paint code" 1. Like a dress code, the way the vehicles were painted. 2. The NSN, but there will be different NSNs according to paint format & quantity. 3. BSC number. 4. Paint code used on record card. In answer: 3. BSC381C 361 Light Stone 4. S1 Colour Code = Sand = S Type = Matt = 1 or if disruptive pattern = 4 or IRR disruptive = 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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