question No Charge on 24V FFR.

[airportable]

Hi folks. Went to work in my Landi. t'day. On the way home noticed the charging light not fully out and head lights starting to dim :shocked:. But after a mile, light out and headlights up.:-)

This happened the first two winters I had it, first time fitted a new used gen. panel. Second winter swopped a couple of wires in the shunt box.

Why is this happening only in very cold weather, is it possible the wind chill is causing contacts to stick in gen. panel? May the prob. sort it's self out warmer weather?

I know from the past when panel goes wrong you are stuck, batteries flatten very quick.

Thanks. Andy.

[fv1609]

Andy I assume you are talking about a 90A system.

 

What Mk of Generator Panel do you have?

 

Does this 'no charge & then charge' situation happen every time you use it in the cold?

 

Does it ever charge ok & then go into a 'no charge' situation?

 

Does it start easily from cold or does it seem to struggle?

 

Do you use a battery isolation switch?

 

Is the HIGH/LOW charge rate set correctly?

 

Does changing its setting make any difference to the charge rate or warning light?

 

Is the tension of the fan belt correctly set?

 

What does the vehicle ammeter (if you have one fitted) show during all this?

 

Is the whole charging installation original or has someone sought to modify, simplify, embellish or tamper with it?

 

What were the wires you swapped in the shunt box?

 

Does the shunt box & Gen Panel have good earth bonds still?

Edited December 22, 2010 by fv1609

[airportable]

Hi Clive, thank you for your reply. To answer your questions from the top.

Yes, 90ah

Think No.9 Mk4 (got the AC output socket)

They have only ever given prob. in very cold weather (funny enough allways been Dec.)!

Charge ok this morning (was just above freezing) To-night OK for app. mile, stopped 1min. charge light did not totally go out after restart. But did after app. 1mile (-5' tonight)

Very easy starting

Iso. switch, no

High/low, never touched.

.......-.......

Fan belt OK, checked week end

No ammeter (single amm. one for radio batteries only)

System, origional

Shunt box cables, can not quite remember. last time charging fault, sorted it over the phone with 24v officer from the Lightweight owners club. It was a simple job by swopping over two cables, think marked A B. sorted out the prob. for last five years. ( but was told that I would not be able to charge radio batteries)

Earth's, need to check again. But last time I went through them, cleaned, fitted new external serrated lock washers between chassis, bonding leads etc.

I just find it very odd the charging system starts to let me down in very cold weather, be it five years ago now. Lucky I still have a working panel if all else fails.

Thanks very much for your help.

Andy.

Edited December 22, 2010 by airportable
Gramma

[fv1609]

Andy well that's good that it is still original. I just despair when one hits problems in system that has been bodgerized. Not because I don't want to help, but because it is often impossible to diagnose that sort of problem remotely.

 

The additional socket SK3 is not an AC output but is for Surge Protection Unit No.1 Mk 1 that clips surges by cutting the field supply accordingly. Anyway if you have had to swap lead A which is to the vehicle batteries with lead B to the radio batteries it implies that the vehicle battery contacts have failed in the main relay in the panel (BCK108).

 

So maybe the same is happening again? So it would be worth inspecting the contacts & cleaning them with very fine abrasive cloth & wiping the debris clear with a cloth. If there was condensation when cold this could be an issue.

 

Although usually the panels are pretty waterproof provided the lid has been uniformly & progressively screwed down on an intact gasket. The only other point of ingress can be the blanking plug make sure that is done up properly. That is for pressurising the panel & doing tests for bubbles when submerged.

 

A way to side step the relay for a voltage output reading is to attach a lead to the rarely used auxiliary output pin D on PL3. Rev the engine & see whether the voltage on D goes up & it should also correspond with the relay closing.

 

The only other thought is if there is shorting across the two leads that go to the HIGH/LOW switch. When the switch makes it goes into low charge rate for use in the tropics when the warm battery may start bubbling hydrogen on the normal charge rate.

 

Although you have not messed with it, it would be interesting to see if turning it to LOW mimics the behaviour when it is not charging or at least not charging enough. Then turning it back & forth ensuring it is firmly in the HIGH setting.

[Rover8FFR]

Andy well that's good that it is still original. I just despair when one hits problems in system that has been bodgerized. Not because I don't want to help, but because it is often impossible to diagnose that sort of problem remotely.

 

The additional socket SK3 is not an AC output but is for Surge Protection Unit No.1 Mk 1 that clips surges by cutting the field supply accordingly. Anyway if you have had to swap lead A which is to the vehicle batteries with lead B to the radio batteries it implies that the vehicle battery contacts have failed in the main relay in the panel (BCK108).

 

So maybe the same is happening again? So it would be worth inspecting the contacts & cleaning them with very fine abrasive cloth & wiping the debris clear with a cloth. If there was condensation when cold this could be an issue.

 

Although usually the panels are pretty waterproof provided the lid has been uniformly & progressively screwed down on an intact gasket. The only other point of ingress can be the blanking plug make sure that is done up properly. That is for pressurising the panel & doing tests for bubbles when submerged.

 

A way to side step the relay for a voltage output reading is to attach a lead to the rarely used auxiliary output pin D on PL3. Rev the engine & see whether the voltage on D goes up & it should also correspond with the relay closing.

 

The only other thought is if there is shorting across the two leads that go to the HIGH/LOW switch. When the switch makes it goes into low charge rate for use in the tropics when the warm battery may start bubbling hydrogen on the normal charge rate.

 

Although you have not messed with it, it would be interesting to see if turning it to LOW mimics the behaviour when it is not charging or at least not charging enough. Then turning it back & forth ensuring it is firmly in the HIGH setting.

 

Crumbs is there an English translation for that??????????????

[fv1609]

Well I hope you're paying attention Wayne because it could be your turn soon when you get your LtWt running. Although I think your Generator Panel No.9 is a Mk 3 or maybe a Mk 2, not a Mk 4 as Andy has.

[airportable]

Thanks very much indeed Clive. I'm lucky that at the moment the Landi is not my every day car as it has been for five years. That's the reason I had collected as many 24v bits as pos. three alternators. main charging harness and three gen. panels.

After Chris. following your help will have a look at the first failed panel which I still have. ( I undertand your references etc.) Will perhaps post a pic. or two, but will let you know how I get on any way. Be great if I can get both 'sides' of panel sorted as I need now to be able to charge radio batteries as well.

Have a great Christmas Clive, and every one else.

Wayne, true what Clive says. I have had this prob. twice before. IF it's the panel that's failing you just need to get home a.s.a.p. while the batteries let you. Or if you have to stop disconnect a battery lead (I keep a 1/4 whit. spanner by the battery cover just in case) never got round to fitting a iso. switch, but did not because of originality.

My advice, get as many 24v parts as spares as poss.

Andy.

[fv1609]

Andy, you have been very sensible to stock up with as many 24v bits as you can when you see them. I'm particularly impressed with the spare harness because that is the most vulnerable part of the whole system, which seems to harbour the most faults, dry & strained soldered joints are a particular risk.

 

Being able to substitute all the systems units are of immense diagnostic value apart from the benefit of a spare. I assume you have got article no. 4 with the layout & circuit diagram.

[airportable]

Yes Clive, the penny has dropped. Got the MVT mags. , hence the reason I redid all the earth bonding points a few years ago, and to hand the No. four article.

Who started the thread, 'vechicle manuals', they sure can get you out of the mire with the help of good friends and advice.

Andy.

[fv1609]

Andy all those articles are on the forum, which is useful if you want to print off say a circuit diagram. No.4 is here:

 

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?20662-All-Charged-Up-Part-4

 

It is slightly expanded from the original particularly useful for you in that there is some detail now of the shunt box for the Mk 4 panel.

 

I have a lot of documents here & particularly with Rovers & their charging systems it very illogical in the way information is presented with info in all sorts of diverse publications & fiche. As you read in the article there are a number of errors that get perpetuated.

 

In fact that article was stimulated by helping someone on the forum. It made me realise the previous charging articles didn't give enough practical advice. As I was going through a number of tests for him to try it made me think I should be writing this down in an illustrative way so it will save me doing it again!

 

The bonus was that I discovered the panel I had borrowed to photograph which was believed to be in good order was actually defective. That gave me the opportunity to devise user friendly tests rather than rely on elaborate REME test benches for testing large numbers of panels & generators.

 

The other benefits were that I had an excuse to take the whole thing apart & photo it as I did it. Make a diagnosis, devise a means of repair and the owner of the panel now had got a working one.

 

So if it hadn't been for someone having difficulties & asking on the forum, that article would not have come about:D

[airportable]

Right, snow and frost gone, 5.2' outside. Every thing running wet.

Started the Landi. several times to day no problem. Charging light straight out every time :shocked:.

What to do? Thinks I will leave alone yet?

Really is making me think condensation was freezing 'parts'. But even so, if the case would want to dry out unit and reseal.

Andy.

[fv1609]

Andy in any diagnostic challenge, the greatest challenge arises in those problems that are intermittent.

 

With it running I would get an assistant to monitor the charge light whilst you wiggle connectors & cables to see if there is any flickering. As for the generator, shunt box & generator panel mild thumping with a hide hammer might provoke the intermittency to show its hand. Then you can zoom into the suspect area with more detailed stimulation.

 

If its fine that's sort of great but doesn't give complete peace of mind. I suppose you just have to wait for it to play up & then be ready to pounce with wiggling hands & a hide hammer.

[mike65]

Andy in any diagnostic challenge, the greatest challenge arises in those problems that are intermittent.

 

With it running I would get an assistant to monitor the charge light whilst you wiggle connectors & cables to see if there is any flickering. As for the generator, shunt box & generator panel mild thumping with a hide hammer might provoke the intermittency to show its hand. Then you can zoom into the suspect area with more detailed stimulation.

 

If its fine that's sort of great but doesn't give complete peace of mind. I suppose you just have to wait for it to play up & then be ready to pounce with wiggling hands & a hide hammer.

 

Percussive maintenance is sometimes the only way. Always used to work on the TV.

 

Mike

[Tony B]

Moe technically, you can buy a Freeze Spray for testing intermittents. AH! Forgot, you 've had the organic equivalent!:-D