ted angus

Hi . Peter it must be 30 or 31 years since we met at the Leuchars airshow. Your 7v left me in awe ! Where is she now? Regards Ted

That is my understanding.

In 1953 the RAF issued a lengthy AMO giving the future colours to be used in the various geographic theatres of operations. This AMO introduced Eau De Nil but initially only for all types of FIRE vehicles. Ted

From the RAF data book sorry one page is not good quality. TED

Vehicles of the UK based MT Companies didn't carry the conventional Command/Group marking they were required to display the Company number on the front and rear offsides. 4 MT was based in London to cover the docks and provide MT support to the surrounding district. I imagine support to small units such as this was a typical task. TED

OK Hillman on the left either a van or car, on the Right Studebaker 6x4 of No 4 MT company Ted

R/62 was the marking of RESERVE COMMAND 62 Group. the Command existed from May 1946 to 1 august 1950. Groups in Reserve Command were organised on a UK geographic basis, 62 Group was Southern UK. Info on Reserve Command is Scant but it appears they provided an umbrella to Reserve and Volunteer Units in their region, ie University Air Sqns, Air Experience Flights for Cadets, Volunteer Gliding schools and as a focal point for the recruitment of Reserve and Volunteer Reserve personnel. HQ 62 Group was Exeter, then Middle Wallop and finally at Rudloe Manor. Ted

I would think the loudspeaker was for public order situations, The white circle was a common feature at that time with units in the suez zone and middle east , often an abbreviation for the station or unit was applied.

Q15 GS, Q2 15cwt van( canvas roof ), de-icing heater unit, type 105 signals DF. 8ft wheelbase tractor (for Tasker couplings). 10ft wheelbase tractor ( for Tasker couplings). that's all I can find and they are the only types I have come accross . TED

It was described as a Q2 in numerous RAF publications ?? Ted.

Best I can do I am afraid. There could be a towing hitch lurking in the shadows ?? Ted.

The pre heater van had a 10ft wheelbase and the heater fan driven by 3 vee belts drivenb by a PTO on the nearside of the gearbox

Tony's restorations are second to none ; I don't think anyone in the thread is saying anything different, I followed both Tony's WOT1 & 3 projects with awe and have communicated with Tony previously over the years. The colours possibly suggested by Hendon, who provided a document ; the problem was 22 years ago the document couldn't properly be interpreted. I visited Hendon 30 plus years ago when in London for a few days at an MoD outpost. Although booking an appointment and informing them of my queries they couldn't really help with colours; aircraft they could give chapter verse etc and even published a book containing accurate colour chips of the AM/MAP series of colours used on aircraft in WW2 and into the early 1950s. But vehicles no info at that time. This thread was started by Tony in which he asks a question. An unknown author has published an unseen article which resulted in a letter from M Starmer to the magazine. The letter was somewhat blunt and implies the WOT1 is a recent product of the Museum team. The current custodian at the RAF fire museum has contacted Tony, who in turn asks a question ! I have posted an answer to Tony's question. I didn't post the answer to initiate a bun fight; I posted to hopefully help Tony with info that is now available but wasn't 22years ago when he painted the WOT1. As Julian says the key is the preservation of vehicles, 3 identical WOT1 crash tenders are preserved in the UK and in my eyes Tony's holds the gold medal for the preservation of the vehicle, his work is outstanding. Tony if I can give you any other info RAF related please give me a pm; after 39 years Service which in the 1960s and early 70, was with a number of guys who served in WW2 and 51 years of research my shelves and cupboard are pretty full. OK time to pull the eject handle on this one TED

I wonder if M Starmer realised how many years ago this restoration took place, his letter implies it was the work of the team at the RAF Fire Museum ??

Hi Tony, several years ago you were kind enough to share a copy of your Air Ministry Order (AMO) with me. Since then I have spent many hours and far too much pension obtaining many other AMOs from RAFM Hendon. The 2 colours mentioned in the subject AMO brown special No 2 and dark brown 1A are SCC2 and SCC 1A detailed in the War Office chart No 15 mentioned in Mike Starmer's letter. Unlike the Army the RAF always added a bit more detail to titles, the word special refers to the paints anti-gas properties for instance. Actually in the British Standard 987c the colours didn't have name but a likeness description was published as an Appendix to the standard. I have attached an extract from the BS and the appendix; I have to say the colours on the extract actually look a little darker than they should be. Also attached is a modified Oxford Diecast that I based on your outstanding restoration now in the hands of Steve Shirley. Finally Mike implies the contents of WD camo chart No 15 is applicable to the RAF; There is no doubt the colours and the camo pattern are the same as the RAF were using but the RAF had its own chart on the subject titled " Air Diagram 1382 " to date RAFM Hendon have been unable to locate a copy so in the meantime the chart and MTP 46 mentioned by Mike are the best references we have. Regards TED.

PTO driven pumps was the normal practise in the 1930s for fire engines, the reason to go self contained was the ability to move the unit between chassis or other use. TED

I have extracts from a huge HMG report looking at the emergency fire service in UK 1938 to 1946. the self contained pump units could be mounted in canal barges, on Acedes 2 axle trailers, on auxiliary fire boats, on hardstanding beside lakes, on bridges or on vehicle chassis. This meant with minimal modification a pumping unit could be reallocated. If a vehicle broke down or was written off the pump unit could be removed as a complete unit. There were 3 types of Heavy unit, in terms of mounting on a vehicle it was just a few bolts and the electrical connection between the pumping unit and vehicle battery. TED.

of course I always blame my age !! Ted.

its FYY288

Austin k2

yes of course different varnishes have a different effect, I have the same issue on my models. The paint would no doubt have been from different manufacturers, with many years between them. Once a paint is tinned it starts to degrade hence all our paint had manufacturers date, batch and a use by date. this goes a long way to explain the hue defferences. , even as late as 1990 we were getting BS paints with differences between batches but still met the colour of that particular BS number. Enjoy your christmas prep, with just me and the wife not much to do. TED.

Lots of colours are described as RAF blue or blue grey, A tunic was mentioned in an earlier post. My first working uniform was the rough serge battle dress , now it was much darker than my best blue, then came a working dress in the same material as the best blue, the jacket was a very dark blue the trousers similar to the best blue, we then got lightweight summer trousers for UK and Europe a much more mottled colour ! All different but all loosely termed RAF Blue. But lets return to RAF Blue Grey BS 381 colour 33, in 1948/9 and third numeral was added blues had a 1 prefix 2 was green 6 was grey. So at this point Colour 33 became 633, without any published colour change. Pre-war the RAF used gloss. post-war it was initially used as semi-gloss then gloss. So this brings me to comparison of colours : BOBC, says the Bedford is matt with a slight sheen whereas the tractor is satin approaching gloss. You cannot compare these 2 and I will show you a picture that illustrates my point. this is an ammo tin, originally painted in BS 381 colour 499 Service Brown, I simply wiped the dust off it ( on the right you can just about see a swirl where my rag wiped off the dust ) then on the left side I applied 1 coat of matt varnish - Now you would think it was 2 different colour but no its all service brown. The difference is caused by the changes in reflectivity. there is no firm UK standard on these reflectivity levels most paint companies use 6 or 7 levels in their products. In the MoD - excluding very specialised coatings we used 7 levels: Matt, Semi-Matt, Eggshell. Satin, Semi-Gloss, Gloss, High Gloss. So comparing a Bedford that looks Matt to a Satin tractor will give you totally false comparison. If the Bedford and tractor were both gloss you would see a totally different comparison. . TED

How can you say the Bedford OX at Lytham St Annes is prewar blue grey ? I have seen pictures of it and it looks freshly done ! ? At the outbreak of WW2 Queen Mary trailers were hauled by either Commer or Crossley tractor units . I would guess camo or at least a single colour finish in KG3 would have been called for. The pre and post war colour had the same BSC , if the mix had changed the number would have changed . TED

Yes I did, thanks Mike I have corrected both stud numbers- brain was fogged with numbers TED

Some 10years ago I looked into this actual vehicle: I will call it a wolf in sheep's clothing ! The first massed produced SELF PROPELLED appliance by the Home Office for war emergency use was the HEAVY UNIT. It first appeared in 1938 on a Ford 7V chassis, subsequently produced on Bedford and Austin chassis plus a small number on Morris Commercials. 3 fire engineering companies produced their own version of the actual self contained pumping unit- pump directly coupled to an engine of between 29 & 33 hp , fuel tank and cooling system enclosed in a cowling all mounted on its own short chassis, which was bolted to the vehicle chassis.. The Heavy Unit had 4 deliveries and was rated at 700 approx gpm Irrespective of chassis manufacturer the actual carrying vehicle had its body work constructed by various bodybuilders to a fairly standard Home Office design, a key recognition feature is one locker behind the rear axle and 2 forward of the axle to carry delivery hose and other items. The Austin chassis used was mainly the Austin K2 with its 6 stud front wheels. In addition to the Heavy Units the Home Office designed an EXTRA HEAVY UNIT following a similar design, but very few were built. The EHU had a pumping unit powered by a 49 hp engine coupled to a pump of 1100gpm with 6 deliveries. To accommodate the extra weight and the need for extra delivery hose stowage a heavier and longer Austin chassis was used. ( also a few on Bedford chassis). It retains the single locker behind the rear axle but has 3 lockers forward of the axle. It has a 8 stud front wheel so I assumed it was a Austin K4. So why would the owner display a board on the rear saying Austin K3, In 2010 I was sent some pictures of this machine FYY288 at a show and realised it was actually a Heavy Unit pumping unit mounted on what had been manufactured as an Extra Heavy Unit vehicle. So I contacted someone and asked them if they could take a photo of the chassis number plate- I have attached that photo. So after years of assuming these EHUs were Austin K4s they were actually Austin K3 long wheel base. I had never previously considered it to be a K3 as I had always associated the K3 with military single wheels and tyres with a mesh reinforced radiator grill and brushbar ! I had totally forgotten that there was a pre war K3 model sporting dual rear tyres for both civil and military use, the military version most of which were lost in France in 1940 had an open canvas topped cab, whereas the BEF also had some with an fully enclosed steel cab - most of which I believe were impressed. Returning to the war emergency Home Office appliances the Austin K4 was employed in fairly sizeable numbers as 50Ft wheeled escape carriers, 60ft turntable ladders and mobile dam lorries-, a water carrying vehicle with an on-board light pump and often towing a trailer pump, plus some later Heavy Units were mounted on the K4.. TED.