Old Bill

Hi Doug. Yes, the deadline does add a bit more pressure than I would like and take some of the fun out of it. This is such a good one to aim for, though, and so many of our friends will be there that we must have a go. We won't finish the lorry but we just might have it roadworthy in time. We drove half a mile with the Dennis before the run and I would like, at least, to do the same with the Thorny. Mind you, at this stage with the Dennis, we had run the engine the previous November so we are definitely closer to the wire this time! Thanks for the reminder Matt. The Carlton Colville one wasn't coiled but it is certainly a good idea. The coil of tube that I bought had only 4" left over when I finally connected it but I will look at putting one in after the run. Steve

The last pattern is complete! Gosh, this was an awkward one and gave me no pleasure at all. It supports the pivot for the foot brake bell-crank and changes the direction of the pedal to a cross-ways direction to pull the shoes together on the back of the gearbox. It mounts on the rhs of the chassis frame and takes the form of a roughly skewed hollow cone. I spent a long time puzzling over how to do it. In the end, I set up a jig with the mounting face screwed to the rear and the boss to the top with a cut-away to locate the strips with which it was built up. This sort of went OK but was tricky to hold and I had to let the glue go off after each strip which made it a very slow job. The underside didn't come out too well and you can see how poor my joints were. Thank goodness for filler! It was at this point that I realised that I had a problem. The side pieces were fitted vertical with the pattern in this attitude. However, the obvious moulding position is in this attitude where it become obvious that the sides taper inwards preventing the sand in the centre from being released. The only solution I could see was to lay some strips inside at an angle in order to taper the thickness of the side walls. This worked OK but I used an awful lot of filler and it was the devils own job to shape it satisfactorily. The outside was easier and I just held it against my linisher and dressed it by eye. All done and painted and I think it will be OK. Definitely not one of my better patterns and I am glad to see the back of it. Hopefully, that is the end of the pattern making. 31 in all. My grateful thanks to Barry for printing some of them and to John M for the load of the water branch to make another. At last I can get the dust out of my workshop! Steve

Right there Doug! The trouble with this hobby is that each project requires a breadth of knowledge and I am rather lacking in depth. It is great to have so many people with so much knowledge that they are prepared to share. Thank you very much! Painting would be our real bottleneck if it wasn't for Dad. He is doing some every day and trying to get aheadof the game by painting all the planks before assembly. This will inevitably mean that some touching up is required but also that there is paint in all the joints so water trapping should be reduced. As space is so limited, the lorry is also used as the painting bench! The last time I was down, I fitted the oil pressure gauge pipe. This has no obvious routing so I have run the tube underneath the engine, across the chassis and up the gauge on the rhs. A couple hours with the pipe bender produced this: Then I had to get it into the chassis and connect it. The main oil lines are 1/2" and 3/8" and I could not attach my 1/4" line to the fittng. To get over this, I cut a short length of 3/8" tube, flared it, sleeved it and then silver soldered it onto the 1/4" . Seems to work but my arms weren't long enough to blow down one end with myfinger over the other to test for leaks! Final installation. It is straighter than it looks,. That is an optical illusion! Steve

Something we still don't have is a prop shaft and the spider to drive it on the differential. I decided that an SG iron casting would suffice for the differential spider but we are very lacking in information. Despite all of my pages of sketches and books of photos, I seem to have missed this part altogether! What we do have is a picture from the parts book and a section from 'The Book of the Thornycroft'. I know the holes centres and the details of the spline so I puzzled it out from there. Barry very kindly once again offered to 3d print the pattern for us so I sent him my 'drawings'. In this case, they were not very good as I was really struggling how to define the cut-outs. However, Barry was very patient and modelled it up for me before writing the program to print it. Thes machines truly are amazing! Notice the temporary structure in the middle and in the cut-outs to support the higher pieces. This is broken out on completion of the print. I think the print took a couple of days but Barry did a half-size one first, just to prove the program. The results are amazing and very accurate, much better than my carpentry! With the last printed pattern, the foundry had trouble drawing it from the sand as it was not solid enough to accept the usual woodscrew driven in. This time, Barry left me some holes into which I glued some pieces of timber so they have somewhere where they can get a bite. Two coats of 'Pattern Coat' well rubbed down and pattern number 30 is finished. Only one more to do! I shall be pleased to see the end of this pattern making so that I can get all of the dust off my lathe and out of my workshop. Thanks Barry. That has been a tremendous help and very much appreciated! Steve

That had us worried too but we found a photo of the inside of an original top tank and there was an internal pipe. We have therefore done the same. On the subject of painting lorries, Tim found this super shot of the paint shop at Thornycrofts. As you can see, all women and of modest stature making the lorries look very big indeed! Steve

I must admit that I have no idea what sort of paint they used although it was all applied with a brush. It was described only as 'Service colour'. I do know that the paint shop was staffed by women, however! Now that the bonnet and bonnet frame are in, we could see where the radiator overflow needed to go. First job was to flare the end of a piece of tube that has been waiting for this job for over a year! It is a good tool which came from our local but sadly now defunct second hand tool shop, a great loss. The tube was bent up using a home made pipe bender. (1/2" dia, I can cope with!) Installed with a suitable P-clip and another job is done. Dad has been to the foundry and picked up the two latest castings. The block on the left is to be cut into three to make the tailboard hinges. The lever is part of the foot brake system. Just two patterns left! Steve

Look what we've got! Another friend, also Adrian, from Dartford has made up the complete bonnet for us to my drawings and delivered it in person on Saturday. After admiring it greatly, we had to try it. It is a seriously heavy and awkward beast. Success! Almost perfect, first go! A little tight at the rear right corner but only minor. Looking good! After removing it again, I spent some time adjusting it. The gutters beneath the hinges just fouled so I took a half inch off each end with a disc cutter. And then a 1/4" from the rear edge. Before fitting the bonnet catches made up by Father a while back. There is a hole front and back on the centre line to locate it. # It really is a cussing awkward thing to work on. Don't know how Dad is going to paint it. The centre peg for the front end, screwed to the support angle. Looks like a lorry at last! Dad has the great joy of painting the thing now. Unfortunately, the radiator took a bashing whilst we tried to fit it and remove it but that won't be touched up until it is on for good. Another one to be ticked off! Steve

Truly, you do live in a different world! With the imminent arrival of the bonnet, we thought it time to get on with the front bonnet support. This is a piece of 1" steel angle, bent to the profile of the radiator and secured at the base with two bent brackets. I sketched these up and Dad made them some time ago. The hard bit was to bend the angle. It was going to have to be done hot so I made up a jig for the anvil and then tried heating the angle in my fire pot. This didn't work very well as I couldn't get it deeply enough into the fire. The first bending attempt did not go well and in the end, we opted for using the propane. As you can see, it was tricky but the more localised heat did the trick and we had quite a few sessions if heating and hitting whilst trying to remember which bits were hot! I had previously cut a wooden template to give us some guidance during the bending process. I wasn't thinking very hard when this picture was taken though! The bit you can see is that the angle is just a bit narrower in order to allow space for the leather rubbing strips. A good while was spent easing it in the vice and then cleaning up with a flap wheel in the pistol drill. It was also cut roughly to length. It was then clamped into place to get an accurate length and also to see where the rivets were to go. Holes were drilled for the leather securing rivets and also the rivets to attach it to the base supports Some snap head iron rivets knocked over in the vice. Then dressed off with a file and flap wheel. Job done and ready for painting. All painted and fitted and ready for the bonnet to arrive. Bonnet is due very shortly. I can't wait! Steve

Thanks for all of your comments regarding the silicone hoses. It is always nice to have an alternative option should I need it. We use EPDM at work but have moved to silicone rubber on those where we have had problems. There is a very significant cost difference though. On the subject of bending tube, the piece I have been using is very thin only about 18swg. I have a similar sized original piece left over from the Dennis and that is over 1/8" thick so I am sure that it makes a significant difference. I must ring my local tube bending company and see what they have to say. Failing that it may well be a hot bending exercise using acetylene to get it hot locally. With the propane I can only get it generally hot so I can't control where it yields. I have a volunteer who is prepared to have a go so we shall see. I will think on this and have a go with something else for a bit. Steve

Aren't we all! Steve

What I really wanted was a plain black hose which doesn't look wrong. All of the silicone rubber hoses I have seen have been bright blue or brick red and would rather stand out. This hose is probably EPDM rubber but it does not attract the eye. Well, it doesn't since I rubbed off the orange text anyway! I am not concerned about failure as it is an unpressurized system and I am sure that a bit of tape would get me home, push comes to shove. The poor old Dennis has done less than 100 miles per year since we did it so I don't think it will suffer with over use. No doubt time will tell and I may have to eat my words! We did a few other things over the weekend. I also tried to install the last part of the exhaust system. You might be able to see that in spite of my best efforts, the flange on the end of the down pipe didn't quite line up and there was 1/16" gap at the rearmost end. If I had done it up like that, I would have cracked something so forty minutes with a file saw it brought into line and fitted with a nice new exhaust gasket. One more ticked off! Then I had a go at the fuel lines. I found some copper pipe in the drawer. An hour of work with the trusty pipe bender and I was away. The pipe bender was a very good investment at an auto jumble. It was only a cheap one but it does everything I could want. Ready to have the unions brazed on. Soldered cleaned and polished. Fittings done up and job done. I shall make up a P-clip for the middle of the pipe shortly. More progress! Steve

A couple of smaller jobs were ticked off this weekend. The first was to sort out the fan belt. The original Whittle belting we had been given is wonderful but it was too slack and needed some special links making up. I don't want to do that now so I bought some modern link belting which I fitted. It should get us going and I can sort the proper belt another day. Then I fitted the oil pressure gauge. Unfortunately, the pipe had not arrived so that will be done next time. Then the magneto switch. And finally, the makers plate. That has been on my book case for 25 years as well. At least I won't have to dust it any more! I just need to pluck up the courage to stamp some numbers in it. Steve

A bit more refined than the sort I make. I will look out a photo shortly. If I only wanted one, I might pay that price but the Thorny needs 6 and when we did the Autocar, there were 28! Steve

Thank you very much, gentlemen, for all of your comments and suggestions. I appreciate them all. I could cast it but that would be a lot of effort and it still wouldn't be right. If I don't solve the issue, then I will mitre and silver solder it but I haven't given up yet. I did find a good advertisement and demonstration of a mandrel bender and it is exactly the tool I need. At £300- I was almost tempted but then I realised that it was another £300- per pipe size for the tooling so I didn't. I have found a pipe manipulation company nearby so I will give them a ring and see if they will do just one. It would be a pain in the neck for them but you never know, they might just! In the meantime, we have had a good procductive weekend and I will post some photos in a number of batches. First, the water system. As you have seen, we have made three castings which Father has spent hours cleaning up and drilling. The fourth one was a brass and copper fabrication which is odd really. I wonder why they didn't just do another casting? Anyway, you have seen me silver soldering bits together because of my inability to bend 2" pipe and it remained only to correctly align the elbow before silver soldering the flange on the end. I just pushed it into the flange, twisted it into line, marked it and brazed it. All went well but it came out filthy! Dad's pickle tank is very weak these days so I simply opted for the emery paer to clean it up. Quite acceptable. We had some hse in stock which was a very tight fit but a little washing up liquid helped things along. On it went with some thick gasket and Red Hermetite. A rummage in the jubilee clip bag and the joints were made. I also wanted to fit the big hoses on the castings but, unfortunately, we didn't have any in stock so Dad ordered some. With perfect timing, the hose turned up on Friday morning but, rather to our dismay, had this bright orange lettering along it! Some emery soon sorted that! Some thick gasket paper and a ring of Hermetite and we were away again. All three castings down on thick gaskets and some cut lengths of hose in place. We didn't have any clips the right size but Dad ordered them on Saturday and they arrived today so he fitted them and that is another job ticked off! Now, I am pretty sure that they had not invented jubilee clips at this time so, in due course, I shall make up some brass, bolted ones that look right. However, for the moment, we will live with these as time is pressing and we need to focus on the jobs we can't do without, first! More shortly. Steve

Steady on chaps, this isn't worth falling out over. I appreciate all advice as it is always well intentioned. If I don't take it, it is my look-out. Thanks Tomo. I have been looking at Youtube this afternoon and I have reached the conclusion that I am asking too much of the press for this one. The radius is too tight and the wall thickness too thin so it will have to be a mandrel bender. Fortunately, I now know what that is! Sean, you are right in that the best solution is to get someone to do it for me locally. Now the trick is to find someone who has one of this size! Will have to get on the phone tomorrow. The day has not been a complete washout though. I have finished pattern number 29 which is for the brake lever on the top of the transmission brake. It started with a kit of parts: Gluing up! After some filler and glass paper. Two coats of Bondaprime. That makes two ready for the foundry. Number 30 is currently on the bench giving me another puzzle. I'll show you why in a day or two! Steve

Well, I have just had another go but cannot claim success yet. I brazed up the end of the tube after annealing and then packed it with sand, thumping it well down with a rod before the final squeeze which was achieved by hammering in a plug. Back in the press, I strengthened up the blocks with G-clamps to hold them together. Looking promising..... As far as I could go. Not quite what I am after...... As John said earlier, the bending block needs deeper sides which would prevent it spreading and pulling over the edges. Also, I agree that thicker wall tube would be easier to pull around. This is only 18swg as it is what we could get. Barry. What is 'mandrel bending' and what did your tool look like? Steve

My goodness, what a response! Thank you everyone for your help and suggestions. Looking at what I have done so far and what I have around me this is the plan for tomorrow. I have glued up the split press block and that is going off now. I have cut a new length of tube and will braze up one end. I shall then pack it with some dried sand and seal up the other end. I shall put it back between the blocks but support them width-ways with G-clamps. Then, I will have another go. Watch this space! Steve

Hi Chaps. I need some advice please. The question is how do I bend 1 3/8" dia copper tube whilst keeping it reasonably round? In my efforts to get the engine to a running condition, I have been looking at making up the oil fill tube. This is the one from the Carlton Colville lorry: As you can see, it consists of a brass cup on the top of a bent copper tube. I want to bend the tube, which is 1 3/8" dia, to obtain the clearance around the water pump. First step was to make up a bending jig for the press so I turned a wooden bobbin with a semi-circular groove: This, I cut into three and screwed two parts to a base board. So far so good. When I started to push, there were some ominous creaking noises so I stopped and annealed the tube. When I pushed for the second time, all looked well. However, the tube simply flattened and spilled over the edge of the timber. I then decded to press a bit harder in the un-annealed state but there was a bang and the timber gave up. All very annoying and I am at a loss to know what to do next. I could lobster tail it as a final resort but it wouldn't be right. Any suggestions would be most welcome. Steve.

Thoughts are beginning to move towards getting the engine going. To do that, we need a water system, fuel system, oil and electrical system, none of which are complete yet! The water system is closest with all of the cast fittings ready to fit and only the fabricated elbow between the pump and the suction to complete. As you are aware, I bottled out of bending 2" pipe and managed to import an elbow from the US. I have been waiting to fit the cast elbow to see how long the extension should be. I took the measurements last time I was down so I have now extended it to the correct length. I started by riveting three strips of copper into the elbow to keep the tube aligned. Then it was simply a case of riveting on the tube extension and using my favourite silver solder to make both joints. 24 hours in the pickle and the job was done. The flange is just pushed on for the time being. I shall align the elbow in the flange next time I am down and then silver solder that one as well. Then it will be finished and we will be in a position to assemble the whole water system! Steve

Many thanks for all of your thoughts chaps. I think that what I really need is more experience of brazing! My heat source is a propane torch so Andy's comment about an insufficiently focussed and intense flame is relevant. I can only get it hot enough by heating everything to a brilliant red. I fed in the stick with my left hand and then chased it around with the flame which worked quite well until I got to the back which I couldn't see or access properly due to the bricks. Silver solder would have run in that situation of course! I just need to do some more and get a better feel for it and possibly invest in an acetylene kit. More food for thought. On other subjects, the pattern for the stick of tailboard hinges is now finished. That is pattern number 28 with only three left to do. I have also put two coats of primer onto twenty rope hooks which is a tedious job. Fortunately for me, I can now deliver them to the paint shop for top coating! More shortly! Steve

I could but I don't think it is worth the effort as it is only the exhaust down-pipe and I had to knock the flange on so the joint is pretty tight. The consequences of failure are very slight. Steve

I dropped a coil of filler rod around the joint and then heated until it melted and ran in. The bit which didn't melt was around the back against the blocks and I couldn't quite see if I had got it hot enough. The answer was not! Do you think it will have run into the joint or not? Steve

Hi Barry. I haven't actually cleaned much off, just the two pieces of stick which didn't run so it wasn't much effort. There is a nice fillet most of the way around. Mind you, the gap is a crack initiator in exactly the same way as the lack of weld on the leg of the Alexander Kielland accommodation rig which snapped off some years ago. I don't think my failure will be quite so catastrophic though as the pipe is trapped by the bottom elbow. I have seen exhaust flanges with extensions on them but the Carlton Colville Thorny doesn't have one. Mind you it might not be the original exhaust system after 100 years! Steve

Thanks for all of that information Chaps. It is amazing the discussion points that this thread raises! I'm afraid I can't answer Doug's question about the Subsidy requirements. That is one for Roy Larkin. The Christmas break has highlighted to me how very tight for time we really are and it is going to need some serious effort and proper project management to make it all happen. To that end, I now have a job list of seventy five items on the back of my kitchen door They range from things like 'Bolt seat down' to 'Build body' so they are quite wide ranging in size! Next to the list I have a work plan which has weeks along the X-axis and outstanding jobs on the Y-axis. This shows that we need to complete a little over four jobs per week to meet the goal. I have drawn in the ideal line and am plotting our current state each Sunday. As you can see, we are a little ahead of the game today but I am not sitting on my laurels. It is getting a bit serious when one is project planning and undertaking a Critical Path Analysis on one's hobby! This week, I have been concentrating mostly on drawing and have done the differential spider and the rear wings. The wing drawing will be sent out for quote tomorrow. In the workshop, I brazed the flange onto the end of the exhaust down pipe. Rather than risk silver soldering which might melt in service, I brazed the end on which is the first time I have used this process. As you can see, it has to be very hot (much brighter than the picture suggests) and doesn't run like solder. Around the back, I didn't get it quite hot enough and the rod did not run. Cleaning up revealed a 3/8" gap in the joint but it is not a pressure vessel so I decded to leave it rather than re-heat. Fitting of this pipe will complete the exhaust installation. Then, for a bit of light relief, I made up the peg to secure the bonnet in place. I went back to silver solder for this one. We were very fortunate to find a correct pattern Thomson Bennett magneto switch on an Autojunble stand many years ago and this has been in Father's book case ever since. It could do with mounting on the dash plate so I put my meter across it and then gave it a bit of a buffing. ALl was well and that will go on next time I am down. Then back to pattern making. The tailboard hinges are a weird shape of block which would be a pain to machine so I determined to cast the three of them as a stick so Father can machine them. Rather than MDF, I used a piece of Big Mark's pine, lovely stuff! That is now in the paint shop. The next thing to go on the dash is the oil pressure gauge. This is a correct pattern Thornycroft gauge, found by Mike Jones who set me off on the project so long ago. I pulled it apart and dusted the interior with a paint brush. Cleaning the brass was the next challenge. It had obviously been nickel plated originally but most was long gone so I clamped my drill in the vice with a nylon brush in the chuck and used that. It took off the paint and corrosion and also the remaining nickel. It was very effective but the surface so exposed was very pitted with corrosion. Similarly for the main case. A buff with some Autosol and back together. I turned up a union nut and nipple for the pipe connection and the gauge ia also ready to be fitted to the dash. More pattern making this week. Only three left! Steve

What a wonderful find! Thanks for posting, Cel. I shall look forward to finding out what has happened to them! Steve