steveo578

A couple of T54s that escaped the smelter img007a had a NVA insignia on the turret. img007b was possibly also of NVA origin but was Czech built -it gave up it's starter motor to the first one which was recovered under its own power after sitting in the English rain for 10years. Steve

thanks for that you learn something new every day- I would have thought UCs supplied to the Soviets would have been well trashed by 1949 but obviously not:shocked:. It must have been hell escaping across the border -on one side the guards have PPSh41 and drive drive around in carriers, get to the other side and the border guards have PPS43 clones and drive around in carriers.

I'm surprised - by border guards and Volkspolizei perhaps? W.German border guards used M39 and Universals for border patrols and eventually had modified Saladin A.Cs

Probably more than you think there were quite a number of specialist Shermans that made it into the Post War number change (**ZR**) etc including BARVs which lasted to the late fifties and Sherman DDs. Added to if you include Grizzlies as Shermans the ones coming from Portugal in 1983 must have constituted a light regiment (20 odd tanks).

So possibly still at it, Certainly a very interesting site,-can't get my head around some of the photos -I don't see the relevence of Universal Carriers in East Germany although West German Border Guards used them, the gunless IS2 is probably one that was used a IS2 ARV, the training mount of a PPSh41 on the twin 14.5MGs is also interesting as is the TDT55 KT12a Belausus forestry tractor, Raupenschlepper clone. steve

Competition in a command economy was not the same as it would be in the West, for example the competition between Helschel and Porsche, (tiger tanks) Krupp and Rheinmetall (earlier Panzers) in WW2 or Chrysler and General Dynamics (M1 Abrams) in modern times. It was a competition of intellect rather than two teams competing to produce a design to fill an army requirement with a winner taking the resultant contract. In the mid 1950s the A.A. Morozov bureau moved to Kharkov and under N. Shomin designed the T64. The T72 was designed by V. Venediktov who had worked under the direction of L. Kartsev (who produced the T62) in the remnant of design bureau at the Ural tank plant at Nizhni Tagil, after the Morozov bureau left. So there was a level of old school new school competition. The two designs were radically different; the T64 was a Rolls-Royce as AlienTFM said. The T72 was a low technology, high volume machine which was necessary because T62 had problems and T54-55 series were regarded as obsolescent. One of the less apparent differences between the T64 and T72 is the loading system, in the T64 the weapon loaded fired and returned the empty cartridge to the carousel. In the T72 the weapon loaded fired and ejected the cartridge stub out of a hatch between and aft of the two turret hatches - which is a design signature of the Ural team from the T62 through to the T90. Although it took some time to get it right in the T62. Effectively this meant the T64 (and T80) would have a higher NBC integrity than the T62-T72 and T90 which would require an overpressure system, face masks or both to be NBC sealed. You are probably correct about the story of the crew chewing auto loader being apocryphal, the story is that clothing caught by the mechanism slammed the crew into the breach structure, the positions of the crew make this unlikely –unless the turret crew were stupid enough to try communicating by touch i.e. hand on shoulder when the mechanism was loading –which previously was a common way of giving instruction in a tank. Steve

Any one like to guess what this item in the auction list is

Is it the prototype for the original TARDIS or the new plastic one that goes with the new shower bottle plastic Daleks:nut:

Otterburn Churchill targets These three were long term residents of the Otterburn Impact Area the first and second were towed into position probably in the 1960s ( this is aparent in that the drive splines were removed) and by the time they were photographed none had any ID visible. OTA 1 and close up OTA 2 and close up -of interest this tank had signs of repair from an in service A/T hit and had the remnant of a 79th AD logo on the front plate. The third tank on Otterburn Impact Area probably driven on in the 1950s (drive shafts in place -so difficult to tow) was used for 25pdr A/T training but like all the tanks on this impact area was heavily battered by 5.5inch guns in the 1970s and were laterly used for mortar and machine gun use -including 50cal A/P. OTA 3 and close up These tanks have been further broken up since 2002. On the Redesdale Impact area on the road down to mobile target at "Stone in the mire" this tank was rarely engaged and again as the splines are in place it may have driven in place in the 1950s. In the 1970s it was filled with concrete and then an attempt was made to pull it to the road -the tracks snapped. This tank had the name Merlin on the engine intake choc bar- but as has been said there is no guarentee that the name is original. AVREs at Bovington RE training estabishment in the 1950s had Camalot style names -like Black Knight etc so Merlin is a possible but I've never seen an in service photo of it. This AVRE is now at Isle of wight Military Museum. "Merlin" The other Otterburn Churchill was a Mk3 AVRE which stood as a limit marker on a ridge near DavyShiel BSA. It was fortunate to survive without targeting by weapons bigger than Mortars and small arms and was recovered and refurbished by Bob Grundy for the Tank Museum- I don't have photos for this one perhaps Bob might like to post. Like "Merlin" it was probably driven in place and both were originally very early production Churchill 2s returreted during their many rebuilds. There was possibly a Churchill Mk7 at Roman Road A/T range in the 1960s. In 1977 we did a brief drive around -without cameras and binos unfortunately, but one of the guys came back and sketched a tank which was remarkably like an A23 -a Cruiser hull like Cromwell with churchillesque suspension which should only be a paper type. In the 1970s Otterburn received several ex MVEE/FVRDE trials vehicles including the Comores Comet and the submersible Centurion probably 43ba64. If anyone has photos of OTA for the period earlier than 1980s it might be worth starting a new thread Steve

Very very naughty:nono::nono: I'll post some photos of the OTA Churchills on the "churchill thread" I don't want to confuse this thread. Steve

You may be correct, I'm not aware of the circumstances of the loss, obviously if personel were lost during the exercise would classify the wreck as a War Grave and should in my opinion be respected as such. It could be a moot point however as using precidence of the Marine Archaeology Act which is now the international standard only covers ship, boats etc which secifically does not cover other wrecks such as tanks or aircraft sea wrecks. However standard rights of salvage and the attitude of of HM Receiver of Wrecks will have a bearing on this matter. I prevoiously mention the Slapton M4A1 DD which was the subject of unwarrented interference by H.M. Receiver of Wrecks and only a Deed of Ownership issued by the US Government surplus agency then in Germany resolved the matter -and only in that the Receiver decided not to proceed -had he done so the cost of legal proceedings would have wiped out any chance of Mr Small recovering the tank. Steve

Looks like a Cg13a I always thought only Cg4a were used in ETO.

Don't know off hand,but most of the obvious areas have been well trawled over in the last decade or so - I think the valentines were taken by the larger collectors as were the bevy of Daimlers and the M40 SPG, but whether anything has been done with them is fairly unlikely. The Churchill Mk5 or Mk6 that was seen in many publications such as After the Battle and Mr Churchills tank was pulled down to an A/T range probably to replace the concreted Sherman V and Comet that were a feature of many squadies short range heavy weapon training back to the 1970s- if not earlier. The Churchill will have quickly sucumed to LAW 80. I believe the Meteor may still be in place but is rather flat (its a WW2aircraft type but only just) but most of the nearbye gun lines are post war, probably Saracens, 432 and Stalwarts. As to finding anything WW2 there may be still remenants around on isolated areas such as former shooting areas so a range map that show older disposition may be of help. Steve

There are some off the beach in Studand bay too, the Centaurs/Bulldozer story was in Tracklink as few issues past. I suppose Valentines wouldn't be classified as ship wrecks so not covered by the Marine Archiology Act although the amount of grief the late Ken Small got when he found the Slapton M4A1 DD defies belief, however if you think Warcop is cold the Moray firth will be worse.

Measurements of the plate especialy the thickness would also be useful.

Not wanting to upset anyone but being ancient I can remember Czech "asylum seekers" in 1968-69 were pretty angry about NVA soldiers with their style of uniform and simplified helmet still reminded the older people of Wehrmacht. Steve

It was also a surprise how much of it was still on the range especialy as it was on a small arms range next to a Pract-A/T range that had been used for Charlie G. It discovery and that of the Bovington Mk3 AVRE Churchill -which was nearby was down to the Range Officer at Otterburn at the time who was a really good bloke and determined that anything historical was looked at. Perhaps Bob Grundy might make some recollections on the Matilda 1. Years later when the Pract-AT range was being cleared I found this wreckage -normally I can ID stuff but this one is still unidentifed perhaps an early pig -ie Northern Ireland RUC type or perhaps something earlier like a Morris Recce or a home guard extemporisation. Steve

Hi Mantog that's very interesting -virtually every british tank had rubberised wheels, but it's very interesting that it could be a Matilda 1, You may be aware that a Matilda 1 was recovered from the Otterburn Training Area in the 1980s, so it is quite possible, although one thing is certain if would have to be removed as they were so tough it would not rot away, other than the stowage boxes. I hope that some-one has futher information and photos -but its unlikely, for example I've been looking for a "tank" in Northumberland off and on for many years (actually it more a case of waiting for forestry to remove timber) - the story is in the late 1970s some-one unbolted the gun and took it home on his roof rack, much to the amusement of the locals as it bent a vee into the car -effectively writing it off, so I'm looking for a small tank with a 2pdr or smaller. Steve

sorry I haven't any specific information regarding this, but I always like a "ghost tank" story I had a look at the area you posted as a grid ref and there is very little apparent on the good old google earth -although I think it hasn't been updated since first composed as it is a bit smuggy. There are many stories of random targets and abandoned tanks in the North East -indeed even further afield. I'm very interested why you think Vickers light tank and then Matilda -by Matilda do you mean the A11 Matilda 1. Steve

I thought it was one bogged and one o/s -which isn't good, I always wondered who it was that got stuck on Warcop and had to be pulled out by the Scorpion:-D. Incidently the Grizzly in Bobs photo was on an impact area about 500metres up range from the well know November ridge, I think it was designated X ridge (but the marker to the left of the target looks as though it took a hit), just beyond the mobile target track, so about 1500metres from the hard standing, things didn't last long on the hard target areas of these ridges. Steve

Ok I'll defend my position, rather than an important link it could be said that the Tiger 1 [VK4501(H)] was the culmination of a re-action to the Matilda 1 and 2 which is reputed to have impressed the OKW and Adolf himself for its near invulnerability in the June 1940 campaign. To this end the Germans embarked on the development of VK3001(H) and further developed into VK3601(H), both also known as PzKfw VI and the parallel development of VK3001(P) Leopard. The Tiger 1 design order was let a month or so before the start of Barbarossa and had the Wehrmacht not encountered KV -especially the KV2, the weapon of choice for the Tiger would have been the KWK 7.5cm L70 or a taper bore weapon similar to the 7.5cm PaK 41 and its all up weight would have been nearer the 45ton of the planned VK3601. As it was the only thing that could deal with the KV (and the Matildas a year earlier) was the 8.8cm Flak 18, so influence by the panic of the Red menace this gun was re-configured for the Tiger- a gun which was an over-weight dead end and was never used on any other tank or SPG, unlike other German cannons which were often used on several tanks-SPGs. To sum up the Tiger design it was over weight at 12ton over the design (so it is clinically obese which is never good for a cat;) ) which affected transmission and motor and required a redesign of the suspension hence the asymmetric track and extra layer of interleaved wheels. Additionally the use of an extra set of narrow (probably the original) track for transport could hardly be classed as innovative or inspired. Because of the date of production it could not benefit from radical T34 design and therefore had very conventional armour thickness and layout -it had a very similar hull form to the Panzer 4 with 100m frontal armour at almost vertical inclination. (Same as a 1941 Churchill 1 tank). To be innovative it should have led to an improved tank but in reality production ended in 1944- with no direct successor. The tiger 2 was in effect a super panther. With regard to Centurion, of any German tank that was of influence, it was the Panther which British experts were allowed to view after Kursk (indeed in a rare moment of Anglo-Soviet co-operation a captured Panther D is thought to have been handed to the British along with a KV1 and T34/76). It is significant that apart from the obvious sloped Glacis plate the weight of the Cent. was originally planned to be 45 ton- the same as the Panther, but even then no British-US or even Soviet tank was influenced in the triad of firepower-mobility-protection directly by German tanks. After 1945 the Cent. was re-armed with a 20pdr gun which may have benefited from the captured 8.8cm KWK43 but even that is a stretch. The prime influence on British armour post war was the Stalin 3. Steve Sorry Alastair I was already working on the post I think I'll go and take my blood pressure and lie down.:-D

The two M4A1s were ex McGregor Grizzlies Nos 52 and 76 previously targets on Otterburn, the I of W tank has the front and turret of 52 and the back end of 76. As to the McGregor range wrecks as I said in a previous post there were 10 and 6 were recovered these are No18 at Grosbeek NL, No25 (cricklade bovington) 52 and 76 ex Otterburn the ex Shrivenham tank -went to British base in Germany and No176 went to New Zealand, of the remaining 4 it is possible that 2 No 91 and No 134 were sent to Warcop which leaves 2. It is possible that these were each alocated otterburn and Warcop, Otterburn staff said they had 3 Shermans in 1991 but only 2 have been confirmed, either one was saved early on or a M47 was mistaken for a Sherman. Steve

The flag that was raised on the Reichstag on 30th april 1945 -repeated for the cameras on 2nd May 1945 was a standard flag of the union of soviet socialist republics ie a red flag with a star and hammer and sickle, as shown in the 2 photos although it is possible that the photo was doctored. A Red Flag without any logos (star hammer and sickle) is the flag of the communist party -the international. Steve

In way you are correct, however when the B29 was designed no-one had heard of the Jet Stream -the Japanese guy who got his D.phil for it published the paper in Japanese and Esperanto so westerners were not aware of it, hence the surprise caused by the balloon bombs. The Jet Stream tends to move about within a given range over a period of time normally several years the UK/European one moves from northern scandinavia to the alps . At the moment a plane could fly from Lincolnshire to Berlin at 10,000 metres without encountering it as it loops southward across the western UK runs across southern France/Germany looping around the German/polish border and then heads north again into Russia. In 1944-45 the Jet stream was encountered over Japan and was faily constitant at that time. What the sitiuation was for the Jetstream was in wartime europe I don't know -I doubt there was any information recorded for it as it would be unknow to all but only a few western meterologists.

My point was about its lack of technical inovation not its numbers -although the production numbers were not that great. Its an interesting theory that the name itself added to its prowess-similar theory has been put forward about aircraft between Britiain and Germany the British prefering agressive names such as Spitfire,Hurricane & Typhoon whereas Germany stuck with numbers ME109 FW190 etc. Personally I don't think it makes much difference, British soldiers were fearful of Panzers from the first battles in 1940 and first impressions were impossible to shake off indeed it was consistantly thought that the Panzerwaffe was armed with "super tanks" from the blitzkreig in the West in 1940. Steve