fv1609

Wayne, I was speaking to a collector in Sussex who incidentally has a collection of vehicles I find more interesting than in the Tank Museum, simply because it comprises exclusively British postwar tracked & wheeled vehicles. I think he has 5 Humbers for a start! Anyway I was discussing the markings on your Pig & he thinks that it may have been owned by the same person who has the similarly marked vehicle. So there is the possibility that the markings are to the owners fancy or one may be copied from the other, I'm still unsure which Pig it was that was used in Minder so don't go buying the DVD if I've got it wrong! One of Dale's Pigs was used in Harry's Game. I did watch the episode but I recall there was not much footage. But I agree that this is 1st Guards & marking it as IV might side step misrepresentation problems if that was not their particular badge.. Even so its a good talking point better than just plain paint & indeed someone has gone to this trouble to mark it in this way, it is likely that it was based on genuine markings which Mk 1 Pigs would have carried.

If anyone wants a pair of models. I think they are about 4 in long. No idea of the scale but they were made up from kits some years ago. Open to offers.

Wayne I have not been able to find an earlier pics of your Pig. The nearest I have each side are 13 BK 14 & 13 BK 44. I looked closely at your markings. They seem to have been painted on, albeit very carefully, by someone who was not a professional sign writer. Having said that they may have been touching in existing signs which may be entirely legitimate. Even the Union Flag, which is in the correct place, has been touched up in this way. Can you make out 2 badges that look familiar on this Pig? This was 17 BK 51 taken 25 years ago awaiting restoration!

Chassis Serial No.21333 ERM 13 BK 33 FV1601(A) Engine No.6190 Contract No. 6/VEH/27455 Date in service 4/12/53 Delivered to 31st ‘B’ Vehicle Depot Church Broughton Receipt Voucher No. CBR/R/4454 Converted to FV1611(A) 1959-60 Struck off 9/8/67 OSDD Ruddington Sale No. 93 Lot No. 718 Sale price £40 Note that it was originally built as a GS Truck in 1953. Many Pig owners will claim that their Pig was built in the 1953/4 period, this is incorrect. The FVRDE design document (No.9187) for the prototype Pig was not issued until 1955 with the 20 vehicles made in 1956. Troop trials finished in 1958, the design document (No.9224) for the FV1611 & FV1612 was first issued 6/11/57, rewritten 20/6/58 & finalised 25/3/59. Production could not have been before this. Yes it takes a lot of time, this has taken over an hour to put together & verify. Each trip to Reading is a 4-hour round trip. Today I need to photo & catalogue a lot of items I brought back for sale & then put them up on the forum. But I know Dale would have made similar efforts to help my wife if the situation was reversed. But I can see the sorting of things will take at least a year. If you study yesterday’s pictures you will see some additions which are with Alison’s compliments: Driver’s seat Passenger’s seat canvas Passenger’s back canvas 2 x periscope brow rests 2 x battery box lids Inter-battery connection lead 2 x rear side locker lids (“NOS” but grubby) 2 x head mesh boxes 2 x used headlights (I have these here)

Alan, nice to see those all, there were a couple that I missed first time around although they might have gone in my end of year hard drive break up. Wayne, I took Alison up there today. Your chassis plate is indeed intact & I'll give you the history tomorrow. Anyway a few pics I took. Can you spot the differences?

Dale Prior Memorial Award After a lot of thought & many ideas, we have now had produced a plaque to commemorate Dale's interest in the Humber FV1600. We believe that the award is novel in a number of ways. Not only does it bring into focus the Humber series, but we believe for the first time focusses on servicing & originality as the key factors in judging for the award. The originality could the way in which the vehicle has been restored into a format that it was or may have been in service or it could mean even an unrestored vehicle but in a tidy original state. But whatever its condition it must be presented to show that it is being adequately serviced as it would have been during it military career. Many awards at shows are either trophies that must be returned or if they are to be kept then they rarely are of any real value. These plaques for Dale's award were expensive to produce & are made of 2mm brass measuring 4in x 6.5in which we hope will be treasured by the winners over the years. One side of the plaque is a close copy of the brass repair plaque for 28 BK 63, a Pig that Dale was working on in the photograph in his obituary. The drawing on the other side was been copied with the permission of the artist Jochen Vollert from his famous Humber book. The family wish me to thank the many people, who in their various ways, have expressed their sorrow for the loss of Dale. This has brought them much satisfaction & comfort. Alison & Ashley will be attending the War & Peace Show on the Sunday & they look forward to presenting the winner with this new & unusual award.

http://www.hmvf.co.uk/pdf/WWW%20FV1620.pdf

Here was Dale when he got this one a good 10 years ago, obviously quite delighted. (Shortly to be restored by Wayne)

This was about 250yds inside the entrance, what I witnessed was the dipping of vehicles driven there. I was told they were doing tractors as well, but did not witness that myself. These vehicle checks were being done to traders & exhibitors vehicles well off the public highway & was the day before the show opened to the public.

We need to see the DVD to verify it is the same Pig. I know Dale taped the episode & was very keen as it was more than just a split second appearance. But I'm just wondering now was it Chris Wilikinson's Pig, although I know that had a broken axle at one stage? I can't make much of the other marking, but those two badges either side is the correct place for the time.

Right ok that's got your name on it.

It is quite possible that the theatrical markings are adaptations of genuine markings that were there originally. In that there might have been a 1st Guards badge there & by repainting it as 4th which may no longer exist then it would cause no legal problems. Or there may be markings underneath that acted as an inspiration as to how this was going to be marked up. The Union Flag sticker is probably genuine there would be one as well at the rear often on Pigs centrally near the apex of the roof. The two main places of employment were Cyprus or BAOR, unless there is any sand paint underneath then BAOR is a good bet. Whether it was used by Arthur Daley, Dr Who or in a newsreel about BAOR adds no value at all. But it does add interest & individuality to your vehicle. When it appears on the show circuit the fact that it has had a TV appearance will interest the public, who often wonder were these film vehicles come from & the fact they are real vehicles rather than plywood replicas built on a transit van or something. You'll need to do rubbing down very carefully to see what lurks underneath. Not just the obvious places, on one Pig I found yellow discs painted on the side doors. These were bridging signs not usually seen on the sides of vehicles although this is provided for in the regulations. One thing to remember whatever other markings do surface, they may not have necessarily been visible all at the same time. Sometimes you see MVs with large numbers of markings all that were genuinely found on the vehicle, but were not displayed all at the same time.

Wayne it was a standard fitting to the Mk 1. It goes over the roof & held up by the roof frame to given a layer of air to help reduce the heat of the sun. It was tied down to the various lashing points. Look at the markings. ROF/W 1959 So would have been fitted to a Woolwich pig like yours. In case you're wondering if it came of yours. If it did it would have rotted away, this has been stored & something Dale bought in the recent years.

I got the info from an Amazon write up of a 3-DVD set of shows that included the Christmas special. I think there was a good minute or so of Pig shots with it trundling along a country lane & quite a bit the interior with Arthur Daley getting a bit nervous about the journey as they headed off to catch Richard Briers in his HQ.

Wayne I've found a passenger seat back canvas you can have. I don't think it is original but it did me for a while until I got the correct thing. Nice idea about the other things. I'll see how the day pans out but I would like to see it & it might help if there is need for verification of details at some point in the future.

From the Amazon site: The second disc features An Officer & a Car Salesman which went out on 26 December 1988 and features guest stars Richard Briers (The Good Life & Ever Decreasing Circles), Diana Quick and this is also the last time Patrick Malahide appears in Minder as Chisholm, this time Terry has a spell in prison after being found in possession of some hooky videos that Arthur left in his flat, it looks as though their partnership is finished. Then Terry gets a job working for Caplan, an ex-army colonel who runs a survivalist school who Arthur is supplying army surplus equipment to, which reunites the pair when they stumble across a plot by Caplan and his men to rob a security van. I think the Pig was to have been used in the robbery.

I think you may have a valid point there. Looking in my book of PW markings the eye with the blue background in that red frame is depicted just as it is on the vehicle. But it has "I" below the eye & the book credits it as 1st Guards. When I saw Wayne's picture I immediately assumed it was 4th Guards as the symbol was familiar. Now although there are symbols for 2nd, 3rd, 5th & 6th which are entirely different there is no symbol for 4th Guards. Perhaps they were no longer in existence & this was dreamed up for a film? Of the 3 Pigs that Dale had, 2 were marked up & used for NI filming. In fact one appeared in Harry's Game now the penny is dropping I'm pretty sure that this Pig was used in a Minder episode. In fact I think it was a Christmas special. I think Richard Briers was some country gent/land owner who had built up a private army which he trained on his country estate. I can remember Arthur Daley being given a very rough ride in the Pig & being shaken around & complaining to Terry that he wanted to get out! Somewhere Dale had this on tape, I don't know if we could find it?

Oh yes! I assume the view is that none of the activities at a steam fair fall within their view of legitimate agricultural purposes.

Wayne I'm going Saturday & will try to visit your Pig. I'll try to remember to take my inspection camera on a long bendy thing to capture the engine & chassis plate & also see if there is a chassis no. stamped on the upper box section - it is rare to find this though. As far as the other items go, it is very difficult as I want to be fair to you & to the family. I was selling the light guards separately, but once I realised they were missing from this Pig I withdrew them & allocated them to your vehicle. So I said to Alison they should be part of the deal as no doubt in due course Dale would have fitted them on, which she agrees. They are quite well made but they are not the original factory finish ones. Whether that was a REME remake or a previous owner I don't know but they will start you off with something. The same thinking applies to the passenger seat base, I will find one & include it as these are essentials really. It sounds as if the driver's seat is there & usuable. If you wanted to buy a 1964 NOS dark green one then that is £20 that might be the last one although I still have a number of the lime green ones made for NI in 1990 which would look odd in a Mk 1. Ah battery lids I had a couple but they got sold, to go in a Scamell I'm afraid:shocked: But I will look & see if there any more but they were £10 each I think. Also in the non essentials is a canvas. There were 2 new ones. I have sold one, another is already allocated, they were £200. I have found another, it has been used but is in very good condition & is £150 if that's any good.

I hadn't thought of that reason, although a lot of items are shown in the guide book. I was very disappointed I couldn't photo in their large carriage collection, I only wanted shots of the "chassis" bits rather that the "cabs". But their policies do suddenly change. In their mag at the beginning of the year they suddenly declared the "don't touch policy" was to be abolished to allow visitors feel more empathy with the visits & this would include books! I was at a NT property a few weeks ago & asked if I could view, not even touch, some old military regulations on display. My leaning over triggered an alarm. But I was assured there were no touchy/feely places at the property although I just wanted looky/peepy. Might just as well had a bus time table on display if you couldn't read it.

No only about 200 were repurchased as stop gap in the lead up to Op Bracelet, when the main fleet was being uparmoured to produce 487 Mk 2 Pigs. The repurchased Pigs went through Op Marble that found it took twice as long to get these serviceable than originally estimated. One of the findings was that the mods to the lubricators on the Tracta housings had not been carried out as instructed in earlier EMERs. When you visit you will see I have several sources of archives. I should be able to tell you when it went into service as a FV1601, the chassis no, the engine no, the receipt voucher no. at the depot, the location of the depot, possibly who it was struck off to, the date it was struck off, the date of the sale, the sale no, the lot no. & possible the price. That was generally £40, whereas a GS was about £80 & sold by dealers for £250. But nobody really wanted Pigs! We know it was a ROF Woolwich one, but not the date of conversion but judging by the ROF serial no. it would have been in the earlier part of the 1958-60 period when Pigs were manufactured. The fact that it has a Union Flag sticker shows it was in BAOR. The Units should be deduceable from the badges you have. It is just possible I may have a picture of it in service.

The parts list/catalogue may define the thread. The relevant VAOS (Vocabulary of Army Ordnance Stores) might indicate this or it could be determined from the manufacturer's part number which is often inherent in the VAOS item number. Most fixings & fasteners would not be exclusively MT & would be in VAOS G1 Parts 1, 2 & 3. Although general MT stores not specific to one vehicle type would be in VAOS LV6.

Wayne I don't know that your Humber was ever in N.Ireland. As an unmodified Mk 1 it was very likely one of the many sold off circa 1967. BAOR is the most likely history for the markings.

It seems to vary, the last time I went to the RS Museum, I had to hand over my camera & collect it on the way out of the museum itself within Blandford Camp although there seemed to be no prohibition of taking pictures in the camp. Security was the reason given but why was it ok to photo in the camp? I suspect there is a fear that someone might publish a book or article & not pay royalties. When I last visited Bovy photos were ok but not for publication. At the AMS Museum no photography was allowed outside, a shame as there were ambulances on display. But I had negotiated to take a few pictures of some of the items under close supervision & that was fine. Again I was given permission to take pictures inside. The policy of the National Trust had always been no photography as flash photography would damage delicate fabric etc over the years. But I was surprised that this extended to the carriage museum, I imagine this is really a publication/copyright issue. Yet I was surprised going around a NT property a few weeks ago lots of people freely taking pictures & no prohibition even for the delicate fabrics!

Wayne The lids were put in the rear for safe keeping in case these fell off during transit! The badge is 4th Guards so do some searches on that basis. I'm afraid I know very little about the structure of British Army Units & even less about their markings, other than a few obvious ones. I think the paint is just DBG that has changed with time. When you get it home & pressure wash it DON'T direct the jet at the radiator shroud canvas as you'll probably blow a hole in it. The barrel key is FV16 - 15 I think you said, so has anyone got a no.15 key for a Switchboard No.1? Although I have barrels I have never got round to fitting one, this may be easy enough but releasing the barrel I believe means dismantling the switch panel & pressing a spring loaded lug near the end of the barrel. I think with the key inserted, the key itself does not turn but it allows the ignition switch to become free to turn.