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Phil fin

Triumph 3HW/5SW

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Hello I am a new member and have picked up a old triumph 3HW well what we thought was a 3HW.
After getting it home and having a good look around it I started to notice a few things that didn’t add up. I have everything but the engine old owner had the 5SW fuel tank.  When my friend contacted his Friend with the engine and frame numbers He came back with this.

frame is a 1940 5SW and the engine is a 1942-1944 3HW. 

very very long shot but does anyone know anyone who would part with or might have a triumph 5SW engine.

thanks 

 

phil 

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Hi Phil .great to hear from you . It's not unusual for triumph frames to have been 're engined .particularly the early war bikes .would.it be ok if you shared the engine and Frame numbers ..photos are normally the best as triumph were quite enthusiastic with their stamping and you can tell a lot ..As a starter of you look at the seat post you should have the frame month and year ..normally displayed e.g.  TE 0840 ..the frame number is usually on or near  the front post .

With the engine again it's stamps will tell us quite a lot ..if you share photos of the bike we can also identify the parts ..for example you may have a field stand mount ..and as you spotted the type of petrol tank. This info might help with the restoration

In terms of 5sw engines the triumph register ..wdtriumph.com has details of spare engines and you might be able to get someone to part with one ..there was a run of Irish army 5sw engines on eBay a few years ago ..so they are around

 

Jenkinov

 

 

 

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Philip checked the wdtriumph.com register and whilst there are 3sw

and 3hw engines listed there are no spare 5sw  engines on the register ..but of interest there are only 11 5sw recorded demonstrating the frames rarity

 

Jenkinov

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Posted (edited)

I had an email about this bike earlier today. Here is my response:-

 Yes the frame number falls within the 5SW contract but with nearly 850 gaps in the frame numbers it's difficult to be certain. What I have worked out from the few 5SW's on the register (mine included) is that all the ones that seem to have their original engines, the engine number is exactly 13567 from the frame number.  So there must have been some sequence for some of them?

Edit:- Jenk if memory serves, There are only about 7-8 genuine WD 5S's on the register so far.

Ron

Edited by Ron

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Hi ron

yeah iv heard there isn’t very many of them around. iv seen pictures of you’re bike it’s lovely. The old owner never picked up on this and brought it as a 3HW. The bike needs a paint but it’s all in working order. Just wanted to know a bit more about it really and would love to get it back to as close as original. 
 

thanks 

phil 

A611A4AC-F21F-4D3F-A165-B15CD7A3FA50.jpeg

2C00B2B6-650D-43D1-AD27-6C3905F711C1.jpeg

2247C75B-F77B-486A-B051-1EDE96C013EF.jpeg

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Well keep it coming with pictures Phil!

Currently I've got mine on the bench as I'm converting it back from 3HW panniers to original stays and luggage rack. Ron

DSCF2809.jpg

DSCF2827.jpg

DSCF2828.jpg

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Phil Thanks for the pictures . As Ron has advised the frame number sits in the range for contract c7828 a batch of 1655 ordered on 18/7/40 ..the front frame stamp is 100 percent triumph .The WD triumph register also has frame TL 19269 so within 8 of yours and The engine number linked to that bike is 32836 .......Rons magic number of 13567..

The 3HW engine is intriguing ..Ron can you associate of with a contract ?

Please keep the photos coming

 

Jenkinov

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Ron.I was looking at your pictures and remembered that whilst the field stand mount were bolted the field clip mounts were welded and are likely to still be on the  frame.

Phil can you please take photos of the rear frame on the near side ( left )of the bike . This could be important in confirming it's a military frame 

 

Jenkinov

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There are a couple of pictures of the left hand side. Hope these are ok. The field stand was one of the things I questioned about the frame as it’s a clamp and not bolted. 
 
thanks 

Phil 

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8F11690B-5E87-45CA-B888-12AF7EA235D9.jpeg

1D7080BB-9E3C-4334-83DD-1215DB2B9B0F.jpeg

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Chaps as far as I've seen, the bikes built at Coventry didn't have a date stamp under the saddle! They were either bare or a repeat of the frame number, which is what Phil's has. I might be wrong but I think the date stamp started with the 3HW. From the few other pictures of Phil's bike that I've seen, it does have the correct Triumph (not Webb) forks, ally primary case and 8" headlamp.

It would be nice if a 5SW engine could be found for this bike. I'm in fairly regular contact with all the other known 5SW owners and one more would be great. BTW 5SW engines never had the W stamp. I guess they were just some left over civy engines that were  fitted in an attempt at hurriedly re-equipping after Dunkirk.

The prop stand with clamp is shown in the 5SW parts list (same as 3SW). My clip lug was missing, presumably ground off, during its post war civilian life.

So far this is the only period picture I've found that is definitely a 5SW.  Ron 

1.7th Queens after their return from Dunkirk.jpg

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Ah we were typing together there Phil. Your field stand and holding clip are off an M20. For future reference, this is the correct clamp. I do have a spare Triumph pole and Cornucopia might still have some correct Triumph spring clips.

And we do have a sorce for the correct stays and luggage rack if you want to take that route. Which is what I'm doing at the moment.

If you don't mind me sharing this thread Phil? I'll continue with a few pix as I go. Ron 

DSCF0989.jpg

Jan.jpg

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No all means carry on I find it very interesting. It’s all a learning curve for me at the moment. 
I have had a email from someone about making the correct rear frame and luggage rack  for the early 5SW Which is more then likely the same person. So I need to find a clamp and a field stand as well. 
 thanks 

 

Phil 

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Well as I said, http://www.cornucopia-enterprises.de/spares-triumph.html has parts. 

I fitted my new stays up yesterday with temporary bolts and have started replacing each bolt in turn with a shallow head button steel rivet. I haven't got the equipment to form the rivets properly so I'm simply mig welding them on the inside. 

Here is the original field stand with clamp that I acquired, and my 3SW which is identical in every respect apart from the engine. Ron 

DSCF2829.jpg

pivot1.jpg

3SW 140.jpg

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PS the 5SW had different gear ratios to the 3S/3H but it doesn't seem to matter much which box is fitted. When I first got my 5SW it was revving itself to death at 35mph. I soon discovered it was fitted with a 17T engine sprocket instead of its intended 20T. So I bought a 20T blank and had it professionally welded to my old sprocket hub.........Only to later find it's the same sprocket as fitted to lots of BSA's and cheap as chips...Doh!  Ron 

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Nice bit of information with the sprocket. I’ll keep that in mind.
My next question is what would you do with regards of rebuilding the bike would you put the 5sw parts ie tank rear end ect back on I’ll rebuild it how it is with the 3hw parts. Obviously I’ll have to keep the 3hw engine in till maybe one day I’ll find the 500 engine. 
 

phil 

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I must admit I much prefer the benefit of panniers, as I always like to carry plenty of tools, spare cables/plugs etc. Not to mention, waterproofs, flask of coffee and egg sandwich. But I've got other bikes which I use for more.....Shall I say touring purposes! 

Maybe just restore it as it is and deal with it as a proper factory spec restoration at a later date when you've acquired the correct parts. Ron

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Ron.my 1940 3sw has a date stamp on the seat post ,and I have seen date stamps on other Coventry bikes certainly from contract 7162 ' it's great to see an original 5sw frame located a real rarity and I am pretty sure with time a 5s enginecan be located ..I am aware of one fitted to a 3sw frame on a bike local to me plus I saw a whole series of 5s engines from the Irish army on eBay a few years back ..I have a spare 3s engine from the same contract 7162 and wish I had picked up at least one of the Irish 5s engines ..

In terms of the restoration the bike is mostly 5sw so personally I would restore it as such ..replacing the field stand Tec with matching items as you find them and enjoy this great bike

Jenkinov

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I stand educated about the rear frame stamp Jenk. I'm fairly sure that the pre-war civy bikes just had a repeat of the frame number. My own 3SW from an earlier contract C6128 has the repeated frame number and my 5SW has nothing at all.

 I gave Phil the contact details for both Edwin and Jork who run the WD Triumph register, in case they have spare engines or knowledge of parts! 

We know that the rear stays and carriers are available and I figured that my 3HW carrier and pannier frames (If I want to sell them) would easily even out the cost.  Ron

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I acquired my 3sw.in 2012 and saw on a nearby bike a genuine rear rack ..I have been keeping an eye out for a genuine pressed steel one for 8 years but frustratingly  haven't found one yet .I will need to check my history but believe another forum member did manufacture a few ?

Jenkinov 

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Yeah I looked on there web site last night Ron but when I tried to email them it said there email address is wrong. You wouldn’t have a email address for them would you. 
 

thanks

phil 

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Posted (edited)

Indeed it is another forum member who is making the parts that I showed in a previous post in this thread, and it was my own original carrier that was used as the pattern. Very complicated to make. Ron

3SW 061.JPG

Rear carrier 2.jpg

Edited by Ron

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Posted (edited)

Typing together again Phil!

I communicate with Peter Long at Cornucopia on occasions and this is the email he uses when he contacts me.   info@cornucopia-enterprises.de

Ron

Edited by Ron

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Phil...I Have a cold lead on an engine ..when I was looking for a spare engine i came across a 5s 1939 engine ...it was featured in a blog on April 2010 .his blog was active until 2016 but there is an e mail address ..

it's not unlikely the engine was a long term project and he might still have it..send me a pm and I will give you the web page and contact details .

Jenkinov

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Posted (edited)

 Spoke to Jork & Edwin. They can’t confirm what engine should of been in the bike due to the files being lost in the bombing.
The features they can see there saying 3SW 5SW with the 3HW rear rack. Amazing what you can find out about a bike now days. I’m now looking forward to rebuilding it and using it. 

thanks

phil 

Edited by Phil fin

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Yes it is the problem I was referring to. The 850 gaps in the 5SW frame numbers and lost records, which doesn't help to ID it as a 3SW or 5SW.  But it's definitely not a 3HW. So you have three choices. .....As is or 3S or 5S. Ron

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