RattlesnakeBob Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) I was contemplating the total conversion and decided instead to do a 'half' conversion job ! let me explain ! The major problem with 6v as I see it is twofold.... firstly..starting ..and second...awful lights..... but.. I hardly ever use my car at night so I wasn't too worried and anyways the headlights aren't bad really anyways.. so ! the starting was the major / only issue I needed to address... I used a 12 Volt 'assistor' system ...... the 6V still does all the other stuff on the car but the 12V battery whangs the starter over .... using 2 power shut off switchs (such as a rally car uses) ...I put one in the 6v line to the starter motor and leave this one OFF........then re-connect the ignition and solenoid feed cable back to the battery side of that switch .... .then plonk in a big hefty 12V battery (plenty of room under my hood) Run the feed off this 12V battery down to the starter motor going through another cut off switch and you leave this one ON... So !... .when you turn on the ignition ...the 6v feeds everything it used to EXCEPT the starter motor ...when you hit the starter button ...the 6V closes the solenoid but 12V whangs the motor over !...simples! . ...it's called a 'total loss' system in that you do need to charge up the 12V battery now and then as it's not being 'fed' by the dynamo .... and should you ever find yourself with a dead 12v battery ?....then you shut that battery OFF...and turn the 6v one back ON...then you can start on 6v as you did before Cost ? One good 12v battery that I already had ... a bit of cable (£7.00) , some cable ties (in the workshop already) and 2 cut off switches ....( about £10 each Half an hours work and it can all be taken back out again to return her to normal should I ever miss the awful starting ! haha! PS: Everything I have ever read says a 6V starter motor can take 12V no problems ....and in my mind?....the wear and tear on the motor is way less anyways because starting now is truly 'instant' so the starter motor isn't grinding over and over and over trying to start her up Edited June 27, 2014 by RattlesnakeBob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Robert Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 I have read the threads with interest...I have owned a Slat Grille for 20 years covering 18,000 miles all over the place Normandy, Holland , Ardennes etc...having totally rebuilt it in 1994... as been mentioned its bit of a can of worms...for my money if a 6V jeep won,t start ( not withstanding a hot day/ hot restart after standing ) its because there is basically something wrong with it....in terms of compression...carb and ign settings..and a 12 volt system just overcomes the fault.. When I see a nice Jeep..as I did in Normandy this year ...there were plenty...maybe a 1000 ??....the whole spell is broken when you hear it start on 12 volts....it does not sound right....part of owning a classic vehicle military or otherwise is its Audible soundprint. as well as its looks...its a bit like a diesel conversion on a Petrol WW2 vehicle.... The Jeep in question becomes less of a WW2 Jeep..... however if you are going to convert it to 12 volts please fit a classic 12 volt battery with separate cells..that looks a lot more in period than a modern Car one...at least take the sticker of it...!!!. these are readily available from the normal sources Now that is is !2volt you could continue the process and fit an electric fan saving petrol and giving you more power , not to mention a CD player... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gas 44 Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 I have read the threads with interest...I have owned a Slat Grille for 20 years covering 18,000 miles all over the place Normandy, Holland , Ardennes etc...having totally rebuilt it in 1994... as been mentioned its bit of a can of worms...for my money if a 6V jeep won,t start ( not withstanding a hot day/ hot restart after standing ) its because there is basically something wrong with it....in terms of compression...carb and ign settings..and a 12 volt system just overcomes the fault.. When I see a nice Jeep..as I did in Normandy this year ...there were plenty...maybe a 1000 ??....the whole spell is broken when you hear it start on 12 volts....it does not sound right....part of owning a classic vehicle military or otherwise is its Audible soundprint. as well as its looks...its a bit like a diesel conversion on a Petrol WW2 vehicle.... The Jeep in question becomes less of a WW2 Jeep..... however if you are going to convert it to 12 volts please fit a classic 12 volt battery with separate cells..that looks a lot more in period than a modern Car one...at least take the sticker of it...!!!. these are readily available from the normal sources Now that is is !2volt you could continue the process and fit an electric fan saving petrol and giving you more power , not to mention a CD player... Mmm hard one this, go back a few of your posts. Remember the Gmc gathering on the 05/06/14,we where there. Not sure if you were . Its not very often that 30 odd Gmc's get together but I had a good look around the one's that bothered to turn up and I'm not sure that ANY were of original spec. There was one running DUKW wheels and tyres,another had been gassed and the burble of a diesel motor. Very few were as they left the factory, ours at some stage has been 12v converted but all of this does not detract from the fact they made it to Normandy some 70 years on. I'm sure a lot of people have their little secrets under the hood or seat or just covered by a tarp. Really it matters not, the vehicles are on the road and the owners derive pleasure from that. Anyway my best 12volt addition would be satnav, mobile dvd player oh and yes my mobile phone charger..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Robert Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 Mmm hard one this, go back a few of your posts. Remember the Gmc gathering on the 05/06/14,we where there. Not sure if you were . Its not very often that 30 odd Gmc's get together but I had a good look around the one's that bothered to turn up and I'm not sure that ANY were of original spec. There was one running DUKW wheels and tyres,another had been gassed and the burble of a diesel motor. Very few were as they left the factory, ours at some stage has been 12v converted but all of this does not detract from the fact they made it to Normandy some 70 years on. I'm sure a lot of people have their little secrets under the hood or seat or just covered by a tarp. Really it matters not, the vehicles are on the road and the owners derive pleasure from that. Anyway my best 12volt addition would be satnav, mobile dvd player oh and yes my mobile phone charger..... Yes, I was on the beach with the GMC,s in fact I organised it...and I like to think my GMC was pretty authentic down to its 6 Volt system that ran a treat for 975 miles of my 2 weeks in Normandy including getting there...if you took a pic you will see it exactly in the middle marked up in 30 th Div. marking,s... I spent the months before Normandy trying to get it correct in every detail I just think that a period vehicle should be just that...yes you can go on and on improving them. but .part of the essence of owning a period vehicle is acquiring the skills to drive them...and maintain them in the field.and to live with their shortcoming,s...the classic car world is awash with period cars converted to 5 speed gearboxes, alternators , geared starter motors..carbs replaced by fuel injection etc...I am sure if someone offered a full synchromesh gearbox conversion for a GMC CCKW they would be snapped up....but where would the fun be in that ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gas 44 Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 (edited) Yes, I was on the beach with the GMC,s in fact I organised it...and I like to think my GMC was pretty authentic down to its 6 Volt system that ran a treat for 975 miles of my 2 weeks in Normandy including getting there...if you took a pic you will see it exactly in the middle marked up in 30 th Div. marking,s... I spent the months before Normandy trying to get it correct in every detail I just think that a period vehicle should be just that...yes you can go on and on improving them. but .part of the essence of owning a period vehicle is acquiring the skills to drive them...and maintain them in the field.and to live with their shortcoming,s...the classic car world is awash with period cars converted to 5 speed gearboxes, alternators , geared starter motors..carbs replaced by fuel injection etc...I am sure if someone offered a full synchromesh gearbox conversion for a GMC CCKW they would be snapped up....but where would the fun be in that ??? I'm not having a go at you, on more than one account I agree with you but the OP on this thread was trying to be helpful and to be honest I think your comment re the battery was, shall we say a little rude. Edited June 29, 2014 by gas 44 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Robert Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 I'm not having a go at you, on more than one account I agree with you but the OP on this thread was trying to be helpful and to be honest I think your comment re the battery was, shall we say a little rude. It was never my intention to be rude, it 's just I don't see the logic of going to all the trouble and expense to convert to 12 volts, lose originality in the process when 750,000 jeeps during the war seemed to work perfectly well on 6 volts as mine has done over the last 20 years. If it wont start on 6 volts find the problem and sort it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RattlesnakeBob Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 If it wont start on 6 volts find the problem and sort it... OK point taken ..but !... as with my old car .. starter motor overhauled and in grand condition ....dynamo the same ..... all leads in good condition (and of the old 'fat' 6v type) ..all connections spot on and , as tight as tight can be ...and onto good clean metal too .... carb adjusted correctly and the timing on the distributor too ......plenty of fuel up to the carb and a primer pump fitted as well ......new spark plugs and caps, all leads fire brand new , coil the same , electronic ignition all fitted and working Grade A.... and a brand spanking new battery of the highest order amperage and cranking power...... and still!!!.... ......whether hot or cold....you had to cross your fingers as she 'slug , slug, slugged' over and maybe and it was just maybe .... started ... and ....................fit her up with the 12v assitor system I described ??? and it's literally one tiny jab on the button and she's away!... absolutely pronto too, hot or cold ,,,...So...my question is, What else was I missing ? and what would you have done to my old girl without resorting to going over to 12volt ??? Not being funny in anyway ..just honestly asking ...what was I missing then ? Thanks, Bob . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w896andy Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 No Bob you are not missing anything, our critic here has some views some of which I agree with and some I don’t but he is raising a much, much bigger subject which I’ll come too. Firstly in my humble opinion (fully qualified Mechanic with 30 years of vehicle restoration under my belt) I’d like to reply to some specifics Don mentioned. As Bob is saying my Jeep also has everything right including a recon engine so “find the problem and sort it” is frankly mis-informed, I had covered that in an earlier post, 6 volt doesn’t always hack it today as I mentioned we don’t use our vehicles enough, they sit around for weeks without being started and nobody (unless you pay a lot of money) makes a 6 volt battery anywhere near as good as when they were main stream. Jeeps in wartime conditions were used all the time and had a very short life (90 day average was quoted to me once) so the engines would always start on 6v. I could give you a long and boring technical case for why that’s the case but just take my word for it. Don is clearly very lucky in that his always starts on 6v, I know the majority don’t. Indeed both the American and British armies had 12 volt conversion kits for Jeeps. The motor industry in general switched from 6 to 12 volts in the late 40’s-50’s for the very same reason, tractors, cars (VW Beetle a prime example) and Motor cycles all changed across all manufacturers, they can’t all be wrong. Regarding the appearance of my modern battery with stickers on it, again please read my posts a few before, I covered that as well. I will make it look original but I don’t have deep pockets a decent ‘classic’ 12v battery is around £160 and this one cost me £32. I understand the opinion of keeping things as they were but ultimately I want a Jeep that starts, every time all the time, when I’ll use it more. If however you wish to stick to 6V, great, please carry on. And that brings us to Don’s main point and one we should all debate and consider as a hobby as its going to get a bigger and bigger issue for us all as time goes on.. What is original and should we stick to it ? Any vehicle including Jeeps get modified from the day they start factory production until they are scrapped. Manufacturers during production, then army’s, then the second army owner (European armies post war with Jeeps, Dodges and GMC’s), the civilian owners post army (recovery companies fitting Diesels) and then finally us. Jeep engines were modified by Willys late/post war with a reinforced head, it’s not original as it never came out of the factory that way until 1945 so should it be allowed on my 1943 jeep ? Then Hotchkiss firstly recon’d and then made new engines, should they be allowed ? etc. etc. As we all know Jeep engines crack, they were made from poor casting and were only supposed to last a few years at most so 70 years on many are cracked, repairs can extend life but ultimately they will all be scrap as cast gets brittle with age. Do we fit Hotchkiss engines or do we just leave them in the garage cold and silent ? What happens when the Hotchkiss engines all crack as well. At some stage somebody will start to cast new blocks and heads and I’m surprised it’s not started yet, but do we fit brand new engines or not. Take it even further my Diamond T 969 has a Ford 6 cylinder diesel fitted (by a previous owner), it does 12-13 mpg, I’d love to fit the Petrol but at 3 mpg is it practical and could I afford to drive it ? I also have a very rare Autocar U8144 tractor unit, it needs restoring and has a running 9 litre petrol engine in, do I keep it Petrol and not run it due to cost or convert it to diesel and be able to show it ? You can even get into Indicators and number plates on Jeeps, they were not original but most of us have them (I’m sure Don will confirm he is one of those who has not fitted them). In my opinion it’s a balance of practicality versus originality if we stick to total originality they will in the end be sat still never to be driven, we have to be sensible and allow people to see them being driven and ensure they survive for future generations. The vintage aeroplane movement have the same issue, flying to modern standards or sat in a museum suspended on wires. I would welcome any bodies view, I guess there are no wrong opinions just different shades of grey. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gas 44 Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 "You can even get into Indicators and number plates on Jeeps, they were not original but most of us have them (I’m sure Don will confirm he is one of those who has not fitted them)" In one of Dons earlier post he mentioned where he was parked with his GMC on Omaha beach. Well I was parked bang next to him to the right and I can confirm he has both indicators and at least a front number plate fitted to his GMC. Now I dont see a problem with that other than the fact he is banging on about keeping vehicle original. I'm sure the GMC did not come out of the factory with either of those additions but nor would they have been fitted with "Allied Forces/ Worthing" canvas. As I said before we all have our little secrets.........even Don :cheesy: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpowder44 Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 At the risk of being banned on here I have to say , what a load of tripe written about originality. The following pictures taken from Electrical and mechanical engineering regulations show a few of the mods done to jeeps in British service. Note different carb, extra springs front and rear. One of my jeeps has these extra springs and when I assembled it and tried to fit new shock absorbers the front and rear were too short. I phoned Tony Sudds and he knew exactly what to do. Put rear shocks to the front and ha supplied longer ones for the rear. There are plenty more British mods if anyone is interested, John. ps British also converted many jeeps to 12 volt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Robert Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 At the risk of being banned on here I have to say , what a load of tripe written about originality. The following pictures taken from Electrical and mechanical engineering regulations show a few of the mods done to jeeps in British service. Note different carb, extra springs front and rear. One of my jeeps has these extra springs and when I assembled it and tried to fit new shock absorbers the front and rear were too short. I phoned Tony Sudds and he knew exactly what to do. Put rear shocks to the front and ha supplied longer ones for the rear. There are plenty more British mods if anyone is interested, John. ps British also converted many jeeps to 12 volt.[ATTACH=CONFIG]93908[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]93909[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]93910[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]93911[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]93912[/ATTACH] I am sure many people will be rushing to fit a Land Rover Solex type 32 carb to help their 12 volts Jeeps start even better and maybe improve the fuel consumption,., safe in the knowledge that the British Military fitted them. The excellent posts from contributors in this topic have not mentioned the importance of setting up the standard Carter carb correctly, as detailed in TM 9-1826A. The adjustment of the metering rod and idle richness ( CO ) is critical in keeping the plugs clean so that it will start on 6 volts. Idle CO levels should not exceed 3 % or the plugs will carbon up requiring a greater spark voltage...( which 12 volts gives ) . Similarly the running CO levels at all roads speeds need to be correct. a " plug cut " should always show a white centre electrode.. A change to NGK B6S plugs usually improves starting... Tony Sudds is the MAN....not sure any of his creations have been 12 volt..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gas 44 Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I am sure many people will be rushing to fit a Land Rover Solex type 32 carb to help their 12 volts Jeeps start even better and maybe improve the fuel consumption,., safe in the knowledge that the British Military fitted them. The excellent posts from contributors in this topic have not mentioned the importance of setting up the standard Carter carb correctly, as detailed in TM 9-1826A. The adjustment of the metering rod and idle richness ( CO ) is critical in keeping the plugs clean so that it will start on 6 volts. Idle CO levels should not exceed 3 % or the plugs will carbon up requiring a greater spark voltage...( which 12 volts gives ) . Similarly the running CO levels at all roads speeds need to be correct. a " plug cut " should always show a white centre electrode.. A change to NGK B6S plugs usually improves starting... Tony Sudds is the MAN....not sure any of his creations have been 12 volt..... PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, can anyone tell me where I might be able to source some ORGINAL 1940'S petrol, as I am having to use the likes of Shell,BP and heaven forbid Tesco fuel and its playing havoc with me "twin choke" WEBER carb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w896andy Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 Don NGK spark plugs in your Jeep, I didn't know America sourced spark plugs from Japan during the war as OE equipment !!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gas 44 Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Don NGK spark plugs in your Jeep, I didn't know America sourced spark plugs from Japan during the war as OE equipment !!!! Nice one, game set and match I think......there is also a little of pot calling the kettle black here,or should it be stones and glass houses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RattlesnakeBob Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Well I'd just like to see them kept rolling using whatever modifications are ever needed to do just that .....keep them going....the alternative is pretty sad....because eventually they'd all be parked up for want of absolutely grade A original components that were no longer available........... and to me that's a horrifying scenario. Lets leave it at that hey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Don NGK spark plugs in your Jeep, I didn't know America sourced spark plugs from Japan during the war as OE equipment !!!! Well the Japanese army used Harley Davidson motor cycles! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 After 70+ years, what is original? My Dodge WC54 was built in America, rebuilt in Germany in 1952, and modified in Norway. So? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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